§ 2.35 p.m.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government why, on the Advisory Committee set up under the chairmanship of Sir John Lang as principal adviser on sport to the Lord President of the Council to make recommendations for giving financial support to British amateur teams enabling them to take part in international sporting events abroad, and comprising in addition to the Chairman the general secretary of the British Olympic Association and the general secretary of the Central Council of Physical Recreation, it has been considered necessary to add two representatives from the Ministry of Education.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH)My Lords, as I explained on 12th February in answer to an earlier Question by the noble Lady, the representatives of the Ministry of Education and the Scottish Education Department are the official members of the Committee because their work, particularly through Her Majesty's Inspectors, gives them great experience of the work of national sporting bodies.
1026 I might add that in the original announcement in your Lordships' House on November 14 last year it was specifically stated that the Advisory Committee would consist of both officials and non-officials. Since the Ministry of Education and the Scottish Education Department have closer associations with the governing bodies of sport than any other Government Department, it seems appropriate that the official representatives should be drawn from these two Departments. I do not think that either the noble Lady or the organisations concerned questioned this arrangement at the time.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that it seems quite incredible that anybody would give him such a stupid Answer to bring to this House for a second time.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYI am sorry if noble Lords do not like it. I would ask them to believe that that is an understatement. Referring to the OFFICIAL REPORT for November 14 last, Vol. 253, col. 124, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that when the reference was made to officials and representatives there was not one person in the sporting bodies who even dreamt that the word "officials" meant representatives from any particular Ministry. May I ask him what on earth he thinks Ministry of Education officials know about, or have to do with, adult teams competing in international sport overseas?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, as I have, I think, previously explained, it would not be right, as I believe the noble Lady implies, that the overseas Departments, whose Ministers must take decisions on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee, should themselves be members of it. In any event, neither of the overseas Departments has the same knowledge as the Ministry of Education and the Scottish Education Department of the importance of a proposed visit to the sports movement in this country, as well as knowledge of the standing of the sponsoring body, and so on.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister 1027 whether he has ever heard of the advice that a civil servant once gave to a Minister, to the effect: "If you cannot answer the Question on the Order Paper, answer another"? May I ask him whether he does not feel that this is really Whitehall dogma at its most blatant? —and I thought the Government was opposed to this. Does he not realise that the sports organisations felt they really at last were going to get some help on international events, and they had no idea that this help was to be vetted and approved by any Ministry? And is he not aware that the sports organisations in this country regard this as a point of principle, and they would rather do without the money than have it given on political grounds, whichever Government is in power?
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, could my noble friend tell us whether the sports bodies have informed him which officials, in their view, do not belong to any Ministry?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am not quite clear about that question. There are two officials representing the Ministry of Education and the Scottish Education Department, and in an advisory capacity there are also officials from the Foreign Office and the Commonwealth Relations Office.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, in my quiet way I was trying to support the Minister. I understood the noble Baroness to say that she was well aware there were to be officials on this body but they ought not, in her view, to belong to any particular Ministry. I was wondering what officials there were who do not belong to any Ministry.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHI think in the circumstances it would perhaps be better if the noble Baroness answered that question. But I consider that if the Ministry of Education member and the Scottish Education Department member were present as advisers rather than full members, the result would be that the Committee, which, after all, advises on the spending of Government money, would comprise two non-officials, with a chairman who might perhaps be classed as an official but who is really intended to act impartially as chairman. I think in this case there 1028 would be an inevitable tendency to submit the Committee's recommendations to officials for them to express a view on advice to which they would not be parties, although they would, of course, have taken part in the discussions. It might not perhaps be wrong to do this, but undoubtedly delay would be involved, and if the desire of the noble Baroness and your Lordships is that time should not be wasted, I am sure the composition of the Committee should be left as it is.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I think a great deal of time has been wasted, and I think the Minister is completely lost; but might I ask him whether he would be good enough to inform his noble friend Lord Conesford that the officials were taken to be officials of the sporting organisations, and the last time the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, intervened the sporting organisations did ask me whether the noble Lord was serious in his comments.
§ LORD CONESFORDI wonder what the noble Baroness replied.