§ 3.15 p.m.
§ LORD ALPORTMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government—
- (1) how many scientists from Commonwealth countries are working in British universities or are employed on research in institutions in this country; and
- (2) how many British scientists have returned from the United States to Britain during the period 1959 to 1964.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH)My Lords, 878 scientists from Commonwealth countries are at present working in British universities as postgraduate students. Figures for those on the staff of universities are not available, nor are figures available for all research workers in this country's institutions. But the total within the Atomic Energy Authority, the National Institute of Research and Nuclear Science, the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, the Medical Research Council and the Agricultural Research Council is 114.
979 With regard to the second part of the Question, overall figures, including those for industry and the universities, are not available. The numbers of scientists who have returned from the United States as a result of the work of the Joint Interviewing Board acting on behalf of the Civil Service Commission, the Atomic Energy Authority and the Central Electricity Generating Board, and for the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research are: 1959, 8; 1960, 20; 1961, 39; 1962, 53; and 1963, 26.
§ LORD ALPORTMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his full Answer. Does not this indicate the importance to this country of the international character of science and scientific research; and is it not important that, in dealing with those scientists who go abroad from this country, we should not give the impression that we are suffering in this country either from insularity or from an inferiority complex?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his supplementary question, the tone of which I know will be most welcome to all your Lordships. I think I may add, in that connection, that a large number of professors and senior university staff are of Commonwealth origin. Indeed, something like 10 per cent. of the Fellows of the Royal Society come from overseas. I have only to mention names such as those of Sir Howard Florey, the President of the Royal Society, Sir Eric Ashby and Sir Solly Zuckerman—I know that your Lordships are aware of these names. A number, including Sir Edward Bullard and Sir Gordon Sutherland, have returned to Great Britain from the United States, after having held distinguished posts over there.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, the Minister gave us some figures of the number of scientists who have returned. The latest figure he gave for 1963 was 26, which was considerably lower than the figures for the two previous years. Can he explain why there has been comparatively little success in 1963 in getting these scientists to come back, as compared with 1961 and 1962?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I think that we must look at these figures overall. We cannot very well take one year apart from the others. If we take the percentage of those who have left, it is very small indeed. Over the past five years, something of the order of 1,000 scientists emigrated to the United States, but we must remember that in January, 1962, there were 123,000 scientists working in this country. That figure does not include technicians and engineers. I think that if we look at the figures as a whole, there is a very small percentage of loss. I might add that I should not think very much of the status and reputation of British scientists in the world, if that percentage were very much lower.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, the noble Earl is really failing to answer my question. From 1959 to 1962 there was a steady increase in the number of returns—8, 20, 39, 53; and suddenly, in 1963, there was a drop back to 26. What happened last year? Why was there this failure to keep up the success of the re-recruiting by this Committee to get people to come back to this country.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, short of analysing every single case, I do not think that I can give an answer to that question. As your Lordships know, we are having a debate on scientific manpower on a Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, fairly early next month, and perhaps we can continue to discuss this subject then. My right honourable friend will also be making certain statements on the subject, I think, next week.