§ 3.5 p.m.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, when buses are approved as an alternative to branch line railway passenger services, they will implement their promise of an adequate alternative, by ensuring that the buses have sufficient capacity for bulky luggage and that they provide reasonable connections with main-line trains.]
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, it is the function of the area transport users' consultative committee to consider whether any special arrangements would be necessary, if closure took place, to secure an adequate alternative service. Any alternative bus service must be licensed by the Traffic Commissioners in accordance with the provisions of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, and it is the practice of my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport to bring to their attention as appropriate views expressed by the consultative committee about the need for co-ordinating particular services. Similarly he would see that any evidence of special requirements for luggage was brought to the bus operators' attention.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the Traffic Commissioners could not possibly approve luggage trailers because they are not legal when towed behind buses? Is he further aware that the Prime Minister guaranteed that no railway line would be closed until there was an adequate alternative service? I inquire, is it the Government's view that an adequate alternative service would have to be reasonably equivalent 246 to the service it replaces, and that that means that adequate luggage capacity is a necessity?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, if I might remind the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, of the words of my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport which he spoke on March 27, 1963, he said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons Vol. 674, col. 1320]:
…I shall see that where necessary adequate alternative means of transport are available….I would remind the noble Lord that the words, "where necessary" are obviously an imperative part of the condition, because it would be unrealistic to expect a service to be provided unless there was a need for it. With regard to the trailers and excess luggage space, it has been found in practice that where extra luggage space has been available it has not been used.
§ LORD STONHAMMay I remind the noble Earl also that on November 12 the Prime Minister gave this promise of adequate alternative transport, without the words, "where necessary", in response to a Question by my right honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition; and that is more up to date and weighty than the authority which the noble Earl quoted? May I also ask him whether he is aware that on January 20 Mr. Marples, when inspecting a protype luggage trailer, suggested that it might be used on roads where trains were to be replaced by buses, and that this would meet one of the objections to branch line closures; and that he proposed introducing regulations to permit trailers to be towed behind buses? What answer has the noble Earl to those points?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, with regard to the last point of the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, the Minister has attended demonstrations of luggage trailers which may be suitable for drawing behind buses. Whether or not there would be use for them is, of course, a matter for consideration. They would have to be licensed by the Traffic Commissioners if they are to be used, and if the regulations by the Minister of Transport are altered to permit them.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that, in regard to the lines 247 already closed, there is a seething feeling among the local population because they are inadequately provided for now? Ask any of the people up and down the land from Tollesbury to Kelvedon, for example; ask the people from Brightlingsea to Colchester what would have happened if they had not got a complete revision of the original decision to close the line down. Ask the nearly 8,000 members of the population of Maldon about the closing of their line to the important junction at Witham—people who were daily users on the journey to London. "Where necessary" is not being properly interpreted at all. You are not getting the feeling of the people.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I am sure the noble Earl appreciates that, where a line is closed, the people who object can do so in front of the transport users' consultative committee, who then make their recommendations to the Minister; and before the Minister closes the line, if he considers that there are any extenuating circumstances which require additional bus operations—which has been the case recently—he stipulates that those bus services should be provided by the Railways Board before the line is closed.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that the assurances he has mentioned this afternoon, assurances of which we are well aware, apply only when a railway line is in fact closed? Would the noble Earl not agree from his knowledge that British Railways are progressively withdrawing trains from lines without effecting a closure? Therefore, would he not agree that the public and the local authorities are not in a position to raise the matter with the consultative committee? Could the noble Earl say how, in those circumstances, the local authorities or interested parties could raise the matter, either with the Minister or with the consultative committee, in order to see that, where railway trains are being withdrawn without closures, adequate bus services and luggage facilities are provided?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I think the noble Lord will find that the transport users' consultative committees have been available the whole time for people to make representations and complaints 248 to them, at the same time as making complaints to the Railways Board. The purpose of the transport users' consultative committee is to accept those complaints and to pass them on where they think they are justified.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, we have got beyond the stage of the consultative committee on six lines in the South-West and one in Cirencester, where the Minister has given conditional approval to closure, the condition being additional buses. But, in view of the assurance given by the Prime Minister that the alternative would be adequate, I would say that it cannot possibly be adequate until there is accommodation for luggage, and that cannot be provided until Parliament approves regulations permitting luggage trailers to be towed behind buses. Will the noble Earl convey these observations to his right honourable friend, and if I put another Question down later will he then be able to answer it and give an indication of the alternative the Prime Minister regards as adequate?
EARL FERRERSI will certainly convey the noble Lord's point and shall be only too pleased to answer a Question should he put it down, but it seems to me that the whole crux of the matter rests on what is the noble Lord's interpretation of the word "adequate".
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, it is really based on what interpretation the Prime Minister gives the word "adequate". That is what we want to know, and I want to stop these lines being closed before we find out.