§ 3.46 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT BLAKENHAMMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission I wish to read to the House a statement which has just been made in another place by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. It will be convenient, I think, if I use his exact words. They are as follows:
"When the Government made their statement on the Robbins Committee Report on Higher Education, a decision on the machinery of government for education and civil science was deferred until public opinion should have had opportunity to express itself.
"After taking full account of the views that have been expressed, I have concluded that the right course is to have a single Minister with total responsibility over the whole educational field, who should be Secretary of State for Education and Science. Under him, there will be a single Department, but it will include two distinct administrative units, and this will give the organisation something of a federal character. Broadly speaking, one unit will be concerned with the schools in England and Wales, and the other with civil science, and, through the University Grants Commission, with institutions of university status. The detailed allocation of work between these two units will be adjusted in the light of experience. The Secretary of State will be supported by two Ministers of State.
"There will be no substantial change in the responsibilities of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. Scottish universities will be financed through the University Grants Commission, and will thus be within the sphere of the Secretary of State for Education and Science. The Secretary of State for Scotland will continue to be consulted on the appointment of members of the University Grants Commission and on other university matters.
"As regards civil science, we shall in general follow the recommendations of the Trend Committee on the organisation of civil science. Two new bodies will be formed out of the Department of Scientific and Industrial 264 Research: A Science Research Council, responsible for supporting research in the universities in pure and applied science; and a separate agency for Industrial Research and Development to take over the majority of the research stations now managed by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and to support industrial research. It is also the intention to form a Natural Resources Research Council. The detailed scope of these bodies is at present under discussion. These bodies, together with the Medical Research Council and the Agricultural Research Council, will become the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Education and Science. The National Research Development Corporation, which promotes the development and exploitation of inventions, will, however, continue to be associated with the Board of Trade.
"There must be close co-operation between the research agencies and the relevant Government Departments, and this will be recognised in the arrangements for appointing members of the controlling bodies.
"Legislation will be required, for instance, to set up the new scientific agencies, but the changes in ministerial responsibilities need not wait. The new Department should begin to function at the start of the new financial year, and a more detailed statement will be made nearer that date. My right honourable friend the Lord President will then become Secretary of State for Education and Science. My right honourable friend the Minister of Education will become one of the Ministers of State, and I have invited him to continue to sit as a member of the Cabinet."
§ My Lords, that concludes the Prime Minister's statement.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, we are very much obliged for that long and complicated statement. I must confess, speaking for myself, that I find it very difficult to follow all the ramifications of all the Committees that are to be set up. On the face of it, it looks as if these scientists will be engaged much more in sitting on committees than in doing their actual work. I wonder whether it would be possible to clarify the statement by the 265 issue at some time of a White Paper, setting out in rather more detail what all these various committees are to do and their relationship to one another. It is quite impossible to follow that from this statement. It is desirable that that should be done before the legislation is introduced, so that we may have a debate on it in this House, and possibly have some influence on the legislation later on.
As to the new administrative procedure, we on this side welcome it, because it is exactly what we put forward in the debate on the Robbins Report and on other occasions. I should like to ask this question. The new Secretary of State for Education will be the present Lord President and Minister for Science. Will he continue in his office as Lord President as well, or as Minister for Science? That is not stated in the statement. Secondly, we are told that the present Minister of Education will continue as one of the two Ministers of State for Education, but we are not told which. Will he be responsible for schools, or will he be responsible for universities themselves? We are told that he will continue to sit in the Cabinet. And what about his fellow member of the "federation"? Will he be a member of the Cabinet? Who will he be; and, of course, what will be his functions? There are many gaps left in the statement which I think we must have filled, before we can express any view on it. But so far as the broad statement on administration is concerned, as I have said, we welcome it and it is exactly on the lines that we put forward in the debate on the Robbins Report.
LORD REAMy Lords, I wonder whether the Minister could explain one point. He said that under the Secretary of State there will be a single Department, including two administrative units. Does the word "include" mean comprising two distinct units? Are there going to be more? Finally, I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in saying that we should very much appreciate a White Paper on this matter, and the opportunity of debating it in further detail.
§ VISCOUNT BLAKENHAMMy Lords, if I may, I will just answer some of those questions. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for saying that he welcomes 266 in principle the decision that the Government have made; and I think the noble Lord, Lord Rea, also echoed that sentiment. Of course, this is a fairly complicated set-up. I think the noble Lord will agree that my statement was quite long enough, and if it had been rather longer it might have been even more confusing. I will certainly see that the representations of both noble Lords are brought to the attention of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. I think that when noble Lords have had a chance of reading this rather long statement it will, in fact, appear easier to understand than on first listening to it. I will certainly see that the idea of a White Paper is considered in the proper quarters. As to the question of the position of the Ministers of State, broadly speaking they will be in charge of the schools, on the one hand, and the universities and science, on the other; but each, in fact, will give general support to the Secretary of State. I think that answers that question. So far as my right honourable friend the Lord President is concerned, he is Minister for Science as well as Minister of Education.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, that does not altogether answer my questions. Perhaps they were rather long. One question was: will the new Secretary of State continue to be Lord President? I gather he will continue to be Minister for Science. The other question was about the second Minister of State. We are told nothing about him. What will be his exact function? Broadly speaking, one Minister of State will be responsible for schools and the other for the universities themselves, although they may overlap to some extent. Who will the other person be? For which department is the present Minister of Education going to be responsible? Will it be schools or will it be universities? Also, will the second Minister of State be in the Cabinet, like the present Minister?
§ VISCOUNT BLAKENHAMNo. I think I made it clear in my statement that the present Minister of Education is staying on in the Cabinet at the request of the Prime Minister, and there is no question of the other Minister of State being in the Cabinet. The present Minister has been asked to stay in the 267 Cabinet because of the advice and help he can give to Government work in general. I do not think it would be right at this stage to define too narrowly what are the duties of the two Ministers of State. Broadly speaking, their responsibility will be divided in the way that I said, but they will also be responsible for giving general support to the Secretary of State in such a way as he lays down.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, are we really to understand that the former Lord President of the Council will now be Minister of Education, Minister for Universities, Minister for Science, Minister for Sport and, possibly, for the North-East as well? Because that is what it looks like. Really, this is almost too much. Are the Government aware that perhaps they have got it wrong? They did not follow the Labour Party policy quite closely enough. Are they aware that the Labour Party proposed a Minister of Education with two Ministers of State, but a separate Minister for Science? Surely, this is a downgrading of science in the structure of Government. Are these two separate Departments in the charge of these Ministers of State to have their own accounting officers, as the Admiralty, Air Force and Navy are to have, or are they to be a combined Department?
§ VISCOUNT BLAKENHAMThere will be two Votes under this Department. On the main point that the noble Lord raised, I thought at one moment that he was going to get into an argument with his noble friend, who, I think more generously, welcomed these proposals. I think the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, was trying to "pull the leg" of the Government. My right honourable friend the Lord President will certainly not wish to see that science is in any way devalued. I think the noble Lord knows him well enough to be able to guarantee, even better than I can, that this will not happen. But the proposals are as I have laid down. We think these are the best arrangements to make in the circumstances; and, of course, a great deal of detail, as your Lordships realise, has still to be worked out. But we thought it was in the interest of the House and of the nation as a whole that a decision on the broad principle should be made as early as possible.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, does the noble Viscount realise that the Government's proposals with regard to science are entirely contrary to the Trend Report? Will he also appreciate that, though my noble friend who spoke from the Front Bench welcomed the general proposals, there will undoubtedly be great reservations on the subject of science in the widest sense? Might I also ask what the noble Viscount means by saying that the present Minister for Education will be staying on in the Cabinet? Does he mean that just he, personally, is allowed to occupy that chair, or is this a permanent appointment for him or his successor?
§ VISCOUNT BLAKENHAMThis is a personal appointment to the present Minister of Education, who is staying on in his own personal capacity as a member of the Cabinet.
LORD REAMy Lords, would the noble Viscount not agree that of the two subordinate Ministers one is bound to have much more influence than the other? Tweedledum is in the Cabinet, Tweedledee is not, although they are both responsible to Pooh Bah at the top.
§ VISCOUNT BLAKENHAMThat is an interesting suggestion, my Lords, and I wonder how it will work out. I think it will work out very well.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, can the noble Viscount tell us whether, in this galaxy of Research Councils which is to be established, a place is to be found for a Social Sciences Research Council; and, if not, what provision is to be made for research into social sciences?
§ VISCOUNT BLAKENHAMI think this is a point which certainly would be put to the new Secretary of State for his consideration.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, might I ask the noble Viscount what effect this plan will have on the Welsh Department of Education? Will that also be split into two, or how is it proposed it should be managed?
§ VISCOUNT BLAKENHAMI think that so far as Wales is concerned there will be no substantial change. The Secretary of State will be assisted by a Welsh Secretary, who will be a permanent 269 official with direct access to the Secretary of State, as the present Minister of Education is assisted by the head of the Welsh Department. The University of Wales will, of course, come under the University Grants Commission.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, may I ask whether the position with regard to agricultural research will bring to an end the relationship of the Minister of Agriculture to such research? Will the agricultural research stations, which have been in close touch with the Ministry of Agriculture, be taken away from them altogether? Because they have a great deal of local and regional effect.
§ VISCOUNT BLAKENHAMOf course, as the noble Earl knows very well, the Agricultural Research Council has never been under the Minister of Agriculture. Again, I think the details of this will have to be worked out. At this stage I think it is too early to give an answer to that question.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, could the noble Viscount say whether the Lord President also looks after arts and museums, and whether he will continue to do so?
§ VISCOUNT BLAKENHAMNo, my Lords. The Treasury will remain the responsible Department for the arts and museums—except, of course, for the present museums, like the Victoria and Albert, which do come under the Minister of Education.
§ LORD OGMOREAnd the Commonwealth Institute.
§ VISCOUNT BLAKENHAMAnd the Commonwealth Institute, of course.