§ 3.44 p.m.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD WALSTON)My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to repeat a Statement being made by my right honour- 658 able friend the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs in another place, in answer to a Private Notice Question on the safety of British subjects in the Congo.
"Since my Statement on December 14, only three of the British subjects then believed to be in rebel hands have escaped. These are: Miss O. McCarten, Miss L. Limmer and a Canadian citizen. They arrived in Leopoldville from Bafwasende yesterday. I am sorry to say that they believe that the other members of their Mission, including one man, three women and one child of British nationality, have been killed."
I am sure your Lordships would wish to extend the sympathy of the House to the relatives of these unfortunate people in their uncertainty and in the event that the worst has happened.
"At Banalia, the Government forces found the town deserted, but there were signs of violence and European clothing by the river. It remains possible that some of the eleven British subjects—two men, four women and five children—who were believed to be at Banalia, may have been taken somewhere else.
"Twenty-eight British subjects—not including Canadians—are now believed to be missing, of whom twenty-five are citizens of this country. The rescue columns of the Congolese Army are continuing to press forward."
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for repeating this Statement. It is a very sad subject, and our sympathy will certainly be extended to the relatives and friends of all those who have been murdered in this savage way. Have we no further news from the Ambassador about the possible whereabouts of the other 28 British subjects who are missing? Is there nothing further we can do to ascertain their movements or any further suggestions that we can make by which we might possibly be able to assist in their discovery and rescue?
LORD REAMy Lords, on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches, may I also extend our great sympathy to those people who have suffered, and their relatives? Could I ask if the noble Lord is content with repeating what he said the other day, that we can do nothing for 659 these unfortunate people? The noble Earl asked whether the noble Lord would say what could be done in the future. Can he tell us whether anything at all has been done by the Government in the past week or so to rescue these people from such a fate?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, other than what I said last week, I am afraid there is nothing we can do. Our military attache has been constantly with the forces of the Congolese Army or in Leopoldville or in Stanleyville, and he is following as closely as he can; but in the uncertainty that prevails in that part of the world and the impossibility of finding exact whereabouts, I am afraid there is nothing we can do. As I said last week, we have a "Beverley" standing by in Nairobi to go and help to evacuate those who have been found and liberated. We have tried, and the International Red Cross have tried, to get permission to enter the areas which the rebel forces control, but beyond that I should be deceiving your Lordships if I held out any hope of being able to do anything else.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, have we any contact with the leaders of the rebel forces, or any way by which we can communicate with them, either directly or by an intermediary?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, so far as I know at this stage there are no means of legitimate and reliable contact with the rebel forces. What we have tried is to get permission for the Red Cross to go there, which would be a form of contact, but that has been refused.
THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, can the noble Lord confirm the suggestion in the Sunday papers that rebel activity might extend to other and perhaps more extensive areas of the Congo, and that this story is likely to go on for some time?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, we have no knowledge to confirm what the noble Earl read in the Sunday papers.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, may I ask whether there are British nationals in these other parts of the Congo to which the noble Earl has referred and whether any advice has been given to them that they should evacuate themselves or their children from the district? I feel that it would be very 660 wrong for us to wait until the worst has happened.
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, I cannot give a firm answer on that matter, but I will certainly look into it and find out what these areas are and what knowledge we have of any British nationals who may be there.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, why is it that Her Majesty's Government did not think fit to take advantage of the fact that President Tshombe has been visiting a number of European capitals and having discussions with General de Gaulle, and M. Spaak and other statesmen, by inviting him over here for discussions with a Minister of Her Majesty's Government, to see how possibly we could be of assistance to British nationals in the Congo? I believe it has been stated in the Press that Arab experts are now assisting the rebels in the Congo in guerrilla warfare. In view of the fact that we have our own experts in certain types of warfare, would it not have been possible to provide such experts, who would have been of assistance to the Congolese Army?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that there is no need for us to wait until the Prime Minister of the Congo visits Europe for him to be made aware of our concern at the fate of British subjects. We have been in constant touch with him and his Government about this through our Ambassador, and he is fully aware of the position.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIREMy Lords, could I ask Her Majesty's Government if they have any information as to whether any other African countries, or other countries in the world, are supplying the rebels with arms?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, we have indications that arms are coming from other sources. It is not in the most exact form in which we should like to have it, but we believe there are arms coming from other sources.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, are most of them from Europe, from China or from other parts of Africa?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, I should not like to enlarge on that.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIREMy Lords, I should like to press the noble Lord on this matter. He says "other sources". Would it not be right to tell the House what the sources are?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, perhaps the noble Duke would be good enough to put down a Question on that.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, would it not be possible to give an answer to this aspect of the question in the debate tomorrow or on Wednesday? That would seem to be the most appropriate moment, and it would give the noble Lord time to look into matters.
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, I will certainly do my best to see that one of the Government speakers does this.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, have Her Majesty's Government made it clear, through the radio or other means of communication, to the rebels and rebel leaders that in due course the Government will take every possible step to bring those responsible, both leaders and followers, to trial for these horrible crimes?
§ LORD WALSTONNo, my Lords, Her Majesty's Government have not done that. We should have no locus standi in a foreign country in attempting to bring local leaders to trial in that country.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYESurely, my Lords, we should ask President Tshombe to reproduce a statement such as that: that the Government will use all their influence, either through President Tshombe or through some international organisation, in due course to bring those responsible to trial.
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, I think we can rely on the Government of the Congo to take what steps are necessary to deal with rebel leaders when they are caught.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, why should we rely on the Government of the Congo when there are possible steps that Her Majesty's Government might take for our own citizens?
§ LORD WALSTONBecause, my Lords, it is Congolese territory.
§ LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOLMy Lords, when the noble Lord said in answer to another question that there were indications that arms were coming 662 from elsewhere, did he not mean that there was evidence?—because, if he will take the trouble to find out, he will see that there is a great deal of evidence to show that arms are coming from other sources.
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, I should be glad to consider any evidence which the noble Lord has; and, as I have said, this will be answered, on such evidence as there is, in the debate to-morrow.
§ LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOLMy Lords, have not the noble Lord and the Government better facilities than I have for finding out such evidence; and does not this mean that, as there is evidence, they could find it out if they wanted to?
THE DUKE OF ATHOLLMy Lords, could not Her Majesty's Government consider giving some form of financial assistance to British citizens in other parts of the Congo where it is feared that the rebels may succeed in making inroads into the territory?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, we are prepared to, and do, in cases where need has been established, give assistance to British nationals when they have been released. But, clearly, if we are unable to get to them at the present time to rescue them, or even to know their whereabouts, it would be impossible to get assistance to them.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLLMy Lords, I meant the people who are not in rebel held territory at the moment, but who it is feared might be in rebel territory in future. This would be some encouragement for them to leave before their territory is taken over by the rebels.
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, if we were assured that such people wished to leave, but were unable to do so because of financial difficulties, we should undoubtedly help.
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I should like the noble Lord to be aware that, knowing him as I do, I am certain that he is applying the maximum of conscientiousness and humanity to this problem. If I were in the appalling situation of a hostage in Congolese rebel hands, it would give me considerable encouragement and comfort to know that such help 663 as the British Government could extend was, to some extent, in the hands of the noble Lord. Holding the high opinion we do of the noble Lord, we expect a great deal from him in this matter.