§ 3.44 p.m.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD WALSTON)My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I will now, as outlined by my noble friend the Leader of the House earlier this afternoon, make a Statement in answer to a Private Notice Question. This Statement is on a par with the Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, and concerns what representations were made by Her Majesty's Government to the Congo Prime Minister, Mr. Tshombe, while he was in Paris, concerning the safety of British subjects in the Congo.
301 Her Majesty's Ambassador in Leopoldville has been in continuous touch with the Congolese Government about the safety of British subjects. Mr. Tshombe and his Government are thus so well aware of our concern that no purpose would have been served by a further approach to him during his recent visit to Paris.
As far as an approach to the rebels is concerned, we cannot negotiate with people who are in armed rebellion against the Government which we recognise as the legitimate Government of the Congo. Apart from this, there is, in any case, no effective rebel authority with which we could negotiate.
We believe that there remain in rebel held territory twenty-seven United Kingdom citizens, two Australians and one New Zealander. In our opinion, the most effective agency for rescuing these people and other hostages is the advance of the Congolese Army which, since the fall of Stanleyville, has released several hundred civilians, including fifteen British subjects for whose protection we are responsible. It would be impracticable to attempt a rescue in any other way. For one thing, we are not certain where the remaining British subjects now are.
I very much regret to say that, since November 30, the death has been reported of ore more British subject, Mother Marguerite Bradley, a Roman Catholic nun at Dakwa. There have been other grave atrocities committed by the rebels against other Congolese. The total number murdered is estimated to be over 20, 000, including.5, 000 in Stanleyville alone. According to Press reports, those murdered include eighteen Malaysian and nine Indonesian rubber experts who were training Congolese plantation workers, together with a number of African trainees from Kenya and Gabon.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for repeating this Statement, which I understand has been made in reply to Questions in another place. The frightful extent of these savage barbarities in the Congo must be of the deepest concern to civilised people all over the world. Can the noble Lord say to what extent the perpetrators of these cruel atrocities are being financed and armed by Chinese and other Communists?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, I cannot give any exact information on that point. It is understood that there are a certain number of foreign arms which are being used by the rebels in the Congo and which have entered through various places on the border. We have not at this moment the exact information.
LORD REAMy Lords, may I also thank the Minister for his Statement? I think he knows that all of us, in a position of this sort, are most anxious to back the Government in anything they can do and are doing. But I must say that this Statement leaves me very unhappy indeed. There are 27 people whom we seem to be abandoning to their fate because apparently we cannot do anything about it. Can we really take no further steps in support of the Congolese Army, to try to find out where they are? After all, in the last war many most surprising things were done in enemy-occupied territory for people whom we wanted to help. I am not criticising the Government; I am only begging them to look into every possible means of doing something for these 27 British subjects of whom, a hundred years ago, we should not merely have said, "Unfortunately, it is just one of those things"
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that we are taking this matter extremely seriously and have the utmost regard for the welfare, not only of our own nationals who are our own particular responsibility, but of all those who are suffering in this appalling situation. I do not think his analogy with the conditions during the last war is extremely close, because, after all, the conditions in the Congo at present, quite apart from the differences of terrain, are such that it is physically impossible to be able to pinpoint their position with any exactitude and to go to their rescue.
ORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, can the noble Lord give us any idea of exactly what is happening in the Congo at the present time? Is heavy fighting still continuing? Can he give any indication as to when the areas in which we believe the British subjects to be, will be reached by the Congolese Army?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, undoubtedly considerable fighting is still 303 continuing, but we can give No 1ndication as to when the areas where British subjects are, even if we knew them with any degree of exactness, will be reached. I am sure that your Lordships will agree that we must realise that this is an internal civil war, or a fight between the Government and rebels, in which we have no standing as such. We cannot interfere with the affairs of another country except when we are asked to do so. Therefore, our position is a difficult one; and all I can do is to repeat what I have already said: that we are deeply exercised about what is going on and, by making contact with the legitimate Government in the Congo, are doing all that we can to safeguard the welfare of our own nationals.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, since it is a civil war, I should have thought that there was a good deal of information—there is no front line of any kind—which went backwards and forwards, and that it might have been possible for the Congolese Government and for the British representatives there to find out where these British subjects were. We do not know whether they are trying to do so. Although I do not go the whole way with the noble Lord the Leader of the Liberal Party, I hope that we are doing what we can to help these British subjects, because I feel that this is a very serious matter.
§ LORD WALSTONI will once more repeat my assurance that we are doing all we can. The conditions there are in such a state of chaos that we cannot find out with any exactitude where they are; nor indeed, as the noble Lord himself has said, in the absence of any front line can we say that the advance is taking place at a certain rate and that within a certain number or days or weeks they will be reached. That, I am afraid, is out of the question. We do, of course, have a Beverley aircraft standing by for evacuating British subjects when they are reached and in order to rescue them once it is possible to get at them.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEIt is the case, is it not, that a great many of these British subjects, for either humanitarian or other reasons, have no wish to leave the Congo?
§ LORD WALSTONThey certainly have decided to stay there. So far as I know, 304 all those who wished to get out earlier have already been evacuated. A large proportion remained behind, partly because of their business interests, but very largely, as the noble Earl said, for humanitarian reasons, because they were teaching or were missionaries, or because they were helping the welfare of the Congolese, but a large proportion of those have in fact already been rescued.
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, would my noble friend agree with me that the situation which he has reported to-day might have been less terrible had there been a peace-keeping force of the United Nations, which was withdrawn because there was not sufficient money to keep it there?
§ LORD WALSTONI would certainly agree with the noble Lord that, had the United Nations force remained on after June, the conditions would have been very much quieter, as indeed they were up until the time when they actually left the country.
§ LORD AMPTHILLMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether any representations have been made, or will be made, to the Sudanese Government, which appears to be facilitating the passage of munitions and giving shelter to a number of rebel refugees from the Congo?
§ LORD WALSTONWe regard this as essentially an African matter. We are operating through the Organisation for African Unity in an attempt to bring the whole of the hostilities to an end. Mr. Kenyatta is the chairman of the committee specially charged with pacifying or bringing a peaceful conclusion to these affairs.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, have Her Majesty's Government taken steps already to see that determined and pertinacious British officers are attached to the Congo forces, with a special reference to report back to Her Majesty's Government all the facts which they can gather about these men who at present remain unrescued?
§ LORD WALSTONWe have no right whatsoever to attach British officers to a foreign army. Through our own Ambassador and through the proper diplomatic channels, we are attempting to keep in as close contact as possible with what is 305 going on; but I am sure the noble Lord will agree that we cannot demand that British officers should be attached to a foreign army.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYENo, my Lords, but if President Tshombe is the head of the recognised Government, and presumably a friendly Government, is it not possible for Her Majesty's Government to ask Mr. Tshombe whether he would accept such officers in order that we in this country can obtain the greatest possible amount of knowledge as to the conditions of these hostages?
§ LORD WALSTONWe believe that Her Majesty's Ambassador and the staff he has there provide the best means of achieving this end.
§ LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDALMy Lords, while I appreciate that there cannot be interference in the affairs of another country, can the noble Lord tell the House what offers of help there have been for sending medical supplies and food and other such matters? Can he also say what arrangements may be made to implement any such offers which may have been made in this connection?
§ LORD WALSTONLimited help has already been given in that respect. Once the area in question is pacified and is not the scene of war, Her Majesty's Government will very seriously consider the request made by the Congolese Government in regard to offers of food and other facilities. The International Red Cross have attempted to get permission from the rebels to operate in their area, but this has not been given.
§ LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDALCan the noble Lord say what help from Her Majesty's Government has in fact been asked for by the Congolese Government?
§ LORD WALSTONThe Congolese Government have asked for money with which to provide medical equipment and food, and as soon as the fighting has ceased in that area and there is need for civilian help, Her Majesty's Government will give it very urgent and sympathetic consideration.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEIs the Minister aware that the answers he has given to the main question and to the supplementary questions do not give 306 very much comfort to those of us who are deeply concerned, as I am sure he is also, with the degree of determination which Her Majesty's Government are showing in this matter?
§ LORD STRANGIs there not a military attaché at Her Majesty's Embassy at Leopoldville? Could not he, or one of his staff, accompany the Government forces?
§ LORD WALSTONThe military attache in the Embassy is in the closest touch with what is going on. Whether he is, in fact, accompanying any of the fighting units, must naturally be entirely left to the Ambassador on the spot.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHThe Minister has said that the rebels have refused to have the International Red Cross. Is the International Red Cross working with the Congo Government troops?
§ LORD WALSTONYes.