§ LORD BRECONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what are their proposals for Government administration in Wales.]
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION)My Lords, the interests of Wales are now represented in the Cabinet by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. My right honourable friend will have a Welsh Office in Cardiff, which will be adequately staffed, and a small Ministerial Office in London. He has already taken over responsibility for all issues affecting Wales which do not fall within the responsibility of any other Department. He will now take over virtually all the executive responsibilities of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government in Wales. In particular, my right honourable friend will be responsible for housing, new towns, town and country planning and the organisation of local government. In view 5 of the close link between policies on urban planning and on road planning he will also take over from my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport responsibility for roads, including trunk roads, in Wales.
In the vital field of regional planning my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales will co-operate closely with his right honourable friend the First Secretary of State, and the Welsh Department will provide the Chairman of the Planning Board for Wales. The formulation and implementation of the plan for Wales will be done in conformity with the overall national policy for which my right honourable friend the First Secretary of State is responsible.
With reference to the work of other Government Departments, the application of national policies in Wales will be for the Ministers centrally responsible; but my right honourable friend will have oversight within Wales of the execution of national policy by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Department of Education and Science, the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Transport, the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Labour. For this purpose my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will maintain close and regular contact with the heads of the Welsh Offices.
As regards Parliamentary Questions in another place, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will deal with all those relating to his executive responsibilities and with those arising out of his responsibility for regional planning. In addition, by arrangement with the Ministers concerned he will answer in another place on matters of special concern to Wales arising out of the work of other Departments. Comparable arrangements will apply in this House. Consideration is being given to improving arrangements in another place for the Parliamentary discussion of matters concerning Wales. My right honourable friend will review the present arrangements for the publication of information about the activities of Government Departments in Wales. These changes achieve the object of giving Wales a strong voice in Government counsels and a strong hand in her own administration.
§ 2.45 p.m.
§ LORD BRECONMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for his full and courteous reply. I should also like to say how delighted I am to see him answering for Wales in this House. But, as the Government have failed to fulfil the promises made by them in their Election Manifesto, when they said they would give the Secretary of State executive responsibility over a very wide field, which included education, science, health and agriculture, and even now he does not have full executive responsibility for housing and local government—certain parts of that are retained—will the noble Lord tell us why the Government have found it convenient to break these promises, and why they have led the people of Wales up the garden path and the Welsh Office over Offa's Dyke back to Whitehall?
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, despite the kind remarks of the noble Lord, I hope this will not develop into a war between Pontypridd and Brecon. What has been done is a significant step forward by reason of the fact that there is now a Secretary of State for Wales in the Cabinet with exclusive responsibility for the needs of the Principality. Her Majesty's Government, before arriving at the new arrangements, have given the most careful thought to securing the right degree of constitutional devolution to Wales, as well as guarding against the breaking up of existing Departments where that would appear to have been inimical to the interests of Wales. The new arrangements appear to Her Majesty's Government to represent the right answer at the moment, but if changes in any direction appear to be needed in the future, we shall be prepared to make those changes.
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONMy Lords, can the Minister say whether the purpose of this rather complicated co-ordination (if that is the right expression to use) is to accelerate or decelerate business?
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, the main point of it is to give Wales the satisfaction of realising that her voice will be more strongly heard in the Cabinet, and we think this will be achieved by this method.
§ LORD BRECONMy Lords, as the noble Lord has really propounded the 7 policy of the Conservative Party during the General Election, when we said that we did not want to break up Government Departments as proposed in the Labour Manifesto, I am very glad that he agrees with us. But, as the Secretary of State has taken over responsibility for roads and trunk roads in Wales, I should like to ask under whose direction and authority the Traffic Commissioner and the Divisional Road Engineer will now exist.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, this is rather a difficult point for me to answer without previous notice, but if the noble Lord cares to put it on the Order Paper I will certainly reply.
§ LORD BRECONMy Lords, I will certainly do that. But does the noble Lord not agree that what the Government have done at the present moment means that, instead of the promised co-ordinated transport plan for Wales, we shall have divided responsibilities for railways, roads, buses, docks and airports?
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, I do not think the arrangements at which we have arrived will work out too badly. The roads, clearly, will have a direct bearing on regional planning, and because of this regional planning aspect it was thought advisable to place roads immediately under the Secretary of State for Welsh Affairs. We rather think it is the right thing to do. With regard to the noble Lord's reference in his previous supplementary to Conservative policy as against Signpost for Wales, I am not afraid occasionally to accept anybody's policy if I think at the moment it is the right one.
§ LORD HASTINGSMy Lords, the Statement mentioned close co-operation with the first Secretary of State and with a number of other Government Departments, but I do not think it was clear what rôle, if any, the existing Ministry of Housing and Local Government and the existing Ministry of Land and Natural Resources will have in respect of Wales. Are they to be relieved entirely of all responsibility, or will some responsibility still be left to those two Ministries? Or is it really a question of passing the statistics to the Welsh Office from those two Ministries?
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, so far as executive responsibility is concerned, will come completely under the new Secretary of State for Wales. I think it will be very much more than an exchange of statistical information. I think that this plan will work out well, but if it does not, clearly we shall not hestitate to alter it.
§ LORD WOLVERTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether the Secretary of State will receive a special allocation for roads, apart from the Ministry of Transport allocation?—because Scotland now gets its allocation for roads through the Scottish Home Department. Will they get a special Vote for that, or will it have to come through the Ministry of Transport?
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, there will be separate expenditure by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales. This will inevitably be the subject of a special Vote, and the special arrangements for the actual transfer of financial responsibility are at present being prepared. Having a separate Vote for Wales will be quite a departure.
§ LORD HASTINGSMy Lords, I apologise if I am being slow in picking it up, but I am still not quite clear and should like to revert to my previous question. Will the policy for housing and local government still reside with the Ministry of Housing and Local Government or will it lie with the Secretary of State for Wales?
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, policy, of course, will be decided, I would imagine, so far as Wales is concerned, jointly between them. Executive responsibility for the Ministry of Housing and Local Government in Wales will pass to the Secretary of State for Wales. Obviously, there will have to be close-co-operation between the two on matters affecting Wales.
§ LORD HASTINGSI thank the noble Lord.
§ LORD BRECONMy Lords, there is just one further question that I should like to put to the noble Lord. Did the Statement made by the Prime Minister in another place really mean that no 9 deputation from Wales will be allowed to see the Minister in charge of a Government Department, and that they will all have to be channelled through the Secretary of State? I think this is an important question which people in Wales are already asking.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, this question about exactly how deputations will go is another matter which needs looking into. But I should imagine that the Welsh authorities, and so on, would like to approach the Minister directly responsible for Wales, who has access to the Cabinet. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales, if some particular deputation feel they would like to go through him to the Central Department, would look very sympathetically at any such request.
§ LORD BRECONBy Lords, the Prime Minister did make the statement that these deputations would go, first of all, to the Secretary of State.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, that seems, first of all, to be the correct approach, but, as I said, I think that there would be a suitable arrangement arrived at in the circumstances suggested by the noble Lord.