HL Deb 29 April 1964 vol 257 cc966-8

2.46 p.m.

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what kind of fluoride is contained in water derived from West Mersea borehole, and whether this water is mixed with other water before reaching the consumers.]

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (LORD HASTINGS)

My Lords, the fluoride present in the water is the fluoride ion. Water from the West Mersea borehole is not mixed with other water before reaching the consumers.

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

My Lords, how does the noble Lord reconcile that Answer with the Answer which he gave me eight days ago, stating that this water contained 5.8 parts of fluoride?

LORD HASTINGS

I see absolutely no contradiction at all. I said that it contained 5.8 parts of fluoride direct in the public supply. I did not say that it was mixed with other water.

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

Has the noble Lord forgotten that he told me last week that this water supply contained 5.8 parts per million of fluoride, and that he went out of his way to admonish me that fluoride was not the same thing as fluorine, a fact which I knew fifty years ago? How does the noble Lord now say that it is 5.8 parts per million of fluoride?

LORD HASTINGS

I said it is fluoride. I did not say fluorine. Either the noble Lord cannot read or he cannot hear. I have never said that it was fluorine. The noble Lord's Question last week related to fluorine, with an "n", and I pointed out that it was fluoride with a "d". This is fluoride with a "d".

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

If that is so, will the noble Lord then answer my Question to-day: What kind of fluoride is contained in this water? Is it calcium fluoride, sodium fluoride, or what?

LORD HASTINGS

Certainly I will explain more fully. It is fluoride ion, which is formed from both calcium fluoride and sodium fluoride when put into solution. Both those salts form fluoride ion, which is exactly the same from both sources. I hope the noble Lord is now satisfied.

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

Is the noble Lord aware that fluorine ion is simply fluorine?

LORD TODD

My Lords, as a chemist I must protest at anybody suggesting that fluorine (and incidentally it should be pronounced "fluoren" and not "fluorine") is the same as fluoride ion, because fluoride ion carries a negative charge, which fluorine itself does not.

LORD HASTINGS

I am grateful to the noble Lord who has intervened with that question, asking me whether I knew. The answer, of course, is that I entirely agree with him.

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

So do I.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, may I remind the noble Lord that he has been rather cruel to my noble friend, whose views on this subject I do not share; nevertheless, he has the support of many eminent scientists in other countries. I think the noble Lord's attitude to-day was uncalled for.

LORD HASTINGS

I take very strong exception to the noble Baroness's speaking like that. I have not been in the least cruel to the noble Lord opposite. He was trying to catch me out entirely, and putting words into my mouth which I know I had not said, either last week or this week. I was trying to make that perfectly clear. I think I am entitled to do that.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, the noble Lord is behaving in a way that one is accustomed to see when a Minister thinks that a noble Lord or an honourable Member in another place is in a minority of one. We have always been taught that, however small a minority, they have a right to express their opinions and to expect courtesy.