PERMANENT EXHIBITION OF BRITISH CRAFTSMANSHIP (Hansard, 27 November 1963)

§ LORD PEDDIE
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD DRUMALBYN)
My Lords, the Council of Industrial Design receive an annual grant-in-aid from the Board of Trade, and we are at present considering their proposals as to the level of the grant in the three years beginning in April, 1964. These proposals involve continuing their existing activities and undertaking some new ones—including the exhibition of British craftsmanship at the Council's premises at the Haymarket, to which the noble Lord has referred. We have not yet taken a decision on the Council's proposals as a whole, but it would require a very large increase in their grant to enable them to do all that they have in mind. We have therefore thought it right to let them know that we cannot support this particular proposal which, we think, could be carried out only at the expense of other work to which we attach greater importance.

§ LORD PEDDIE
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his information concerning the grant to the Council of Industrial Design, but I would ask 644 whether he feels that he has given an adequate reply to the Question I have addressed to him, which is whether or not the Government are prepared to give support for a permanent and changing Exhibition of British craftsmanship …"?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, the Question concerns the exhibition in the premises of the Council of Industrial Design. Noble Lords will appreciate that the Council of Industrial Design is primarily concerned with design for industry: whereas the Crafts Centre was concerned not only with design for industry but also with design on the basis of individual artist-craftsmen. We do not underrate the contribution which artist-craftsmen can make, but we are not convinced that providing an exhibition of the kind proposed would appreciably increase the impact which those craftsmen make on the engineering, capital goods and other industries where we look particularly for improvements in the standards of design.

§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
My Lords, may I ask whether the kind of exhibition for which Government support is requested is the kind of thing that is being done in certain other forward countries such as Sweden, who are making progress in engineering and other industries after having design exhibitions? We shall be inclined to be left behind unless we get as good exhibitions as they have had.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, I am not fully informed as to the kind of exhibitions which are run, but I am aware that other countries do run craftsmen centres and exhibitions for craftsmen's designs. But this particular Question has to deal with whether or not that sort of exhibition should be comprised within the exhibition which is organised by the Council of Industrial Design and we feel that, while there might be quite a lot to be said for that, this cannot be one of the highest priorities in the Council for Industrial Design at a time when they have many other projects in view.

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
My Lords, while declaring my interest as a member of the Council of Industrial Design, and having no collusion with 645 my noble friend who has raised this Question, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that the Council view with great distress the apparent decision that has been taken by the Board of Trade? May I ask him, although I am speaking in an individual capacity this afternoon, whether he realises that we feel that the Government do not appreciate the great value of craftsmanship to British industry today? And would he feel it possible to consider this matter, as I know what an interest he takes in these affairs?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, I much obliged to the noble Baroness, but the main question here is one of priorities between this particular project and other projects. I think I can say that while the Council wish to undertake this activity, they would not place it in the highest priority among the projects they have in view, and we thought it as well to rule it out in the consideration at present going on, on their hopes for next year.

§ LORD WILLIAMSON
My Lords, I understand that this is the first time that the Minister has appeared to answer Questions from the Front Bench and I would warmly congratulate him and wish him well. Does he not agree that this proposal would not only encourage and stimulate interest in craftsmanship, but assist in the efforts for improved industrial training, and that on this count alone it warrants the Government's reconsideration of their decision?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, I am certain that it would assist in industrial training, but I must revert to the point that this is really a question, not of whether this may be a good thing in itself, but of whether, in comparison with other projects, it is the best way of spending the available money, because obviously this is not the only way in which craftsmanship can be exhibited.

§ LORD PEDDIE
My Lords, the noble Lord has indicated that this proposal is not a high priority of the Council of Industrial Design. Has it not the unanimous support of that Council? The second question I would ask the noble Lord is this. Is it not the fact that every single one of the Scandinavian countries has an exhibition of this character, which has proved a stimulant to design and, 646 contrary to what the Minister has said, has a considerable influence on industrial design, which is the point that was particularly put to the Minister by the Council of Industrial Design?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
Yes, my Lords, but surely this question is whether, given the limited space available in the permanent exhibition in the premises of the Council of Industrial Design, and given also the fact that the budget for them cannot be unlimited, this is the best way in which they can devote their limited funds to improvement in the standards of industrial design.

§ LORD PEDDIE
My Lords, I must protest. Is it not a fact that the Council of Industrial Design have indicated that they have adequate accommodation and that the total cost of such an exhibition would be less than £20,000 a year?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
No, my Lords, I cannot confirm the estimate of £20,000 which the noble Lord has given. My information is that the estimate was considerably higher than that. I must say again that, given their existing Vote of £250,000 and the fact that there are other projects in view, we have to weigh the value—and I do not dispute the value—of an exhibition in the premises of the Council of Industrial Design against their other projects, particularly bearing in mind that the emphasis just now must be on exhibition for such purposes as engineering productivity, which is one of the projects which they have in mind.

§ LORD LATHAM
My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that, however restricted the exhibition might be, it is better than nothing at all?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
That is so, my Lords; but my information is that at the present time the Crafts Centre is carrying on, though admittedly on a precarious basis.

§ LORD TAYLOR
My Lords, while adding my congratulations to those of my noble friend, may I ask the noble Lord how much autonomy the Council of Industrial Design have and whether this should not be their decision, given a budget, rather than the Government's?

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, they have complete autonomy in putting 647 up proposals for expenditure. But in the last resort, it must be the Government who decide, in consultation with them, which of their applications for increased expenditure are conceded.

§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
My Lords, may I ask one last question? I apologise to the House for the fact that this matter has taken a little time. The Government need thousands and thousands of millions of pounds for their programme of expansion. It has been proved in Scandinavia that a small expenditure on design, kept up steadily, has led to an increase in industrial production. All we say in this case is that our workmen, many of whom engage in design in their spare time, need encouragement in designing as well as in producing the finished work which is exhibited. They want to see how it can be done and whether it is worth going on with new designs. What we really want to do is to build the basis of expansion.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, I do not think there is any disagreement at all between us on the desirability of encouraging design, but the function of the Council of Industrial Design is only to promote the excellence of industrial design, whereas craftsmen are concerned with many forms of design that do not directly contribute to industrial design. This is a question of priorities.