HL Deb 30 May 1963 vol 250 cc956-8

2.32 p.m.

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Governments of the Commonwealth will be consulted before any fresh undertaking about independence is given to the Government of Southern Rhodesia.]

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, the noble Lord will realise that the granting of independence to Southern Rhodesia is a matter on which the decision rests with Her Majesty's Government. Her Majesty's Government have, however, already been made aware of the importance attached to this question by many Commonwealth Governments with whom they are in communication.

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Lord whether the Government realise that unless they succeed in carrying the other Commonwealth countries with them on any decision they take about the future of Southern Rhodesia, there is a grave risk that the Commonwealth may break up?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I think Her Majesty's Government are fully aware of all the potentialities in the present situation.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I would ask the noble and learned Lord whether he would not agree that it has long been a cardinal principle of the British Commonwealth that the members do not interfere in each other's internal affairs. Though it may be said in this context that it is an internal affair of this country as well as of Southern Rhodesia, it certainly is not a matter which directly concerns the other members of the Commonwealth. Would he not further agree that if such a suggestion as the noble Earl has made were carried into effect, it would create a deplorable and probably extremely dangerous precedent for the future?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I take full note of what the noble Marquess has said. I do not think I wish to add anything further to the answer I gave to the original Question.

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Lord one further question arising out of the question of the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury? I agree with the noble Marquess that Southern Rhodesia is our responsibility, but, that being so, can the noble and leaned Lord say whether Parliament would be informed if any decision were taken during the present talks affecting or altering the present constitutional status of Southern Rhodesia?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

If and when such a decision is arrived at, I have no doubt that Parliament will be informed in due course.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, arising out of the first reply, is the noble and learned Lord able to give any indication of the powers residing in the Government of Southern Rhodesia as a member of the Commonwealth, in view of the statements made in this House by my noble friends Lord Salisbury, Lord Boyd of Merton and Lord Chandos, and of what these powers are in relation to the powers which Australia holds, on the perimeter of hundreds of millions of Asiatics, to maintain a White Australia policy?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I really do not think that that question arises out of the Question I answered. It seems to me to revert to a debate that took place in your Lordships' House some considerable time ago.

THE EARL OF SWINTON

My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor this question, to clinch the matter? Has it not been universally accepted by the countries of the Commonwealth that the grant of independence to any Dependency rests entirely with the British Government and the British Parliament, but that admission as a full member of the Commonwealth community lies with the members of the Commonwealth? I think that is the true constitutional position.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I think that the position has been correctly stated. I have never heard it challenged that the question of the grant of independence is not a matter for Her Majesty's Government in this country alone. Any question of membership of the Commonwealth, of course, is a wider and broader question, in which the other members of the Commonwealth have obviously a very considerable influence.

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, is it not a fact that that view is now being challenged by several States in Africa, in view of the fact that the proposal is to grant independence to a Government which is supported by only a small minority of the population? Does not that fact mean that an entirely new approach has to be made to the question of granting independence?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My, Lords, the noble Lord has referred to a proposal. I am not aware of any such proposal having been made by Her Majesty's Government.

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, it has been made by the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia, Mr. Winston Field. That is the proposal to which I am referring.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, this is an intensely important question. Could the noble and learned Lord not give rather more definition of the powers of Southern Rhodesia, at this moment presumably a member of the Commonwealth and, therefore, a Dominion?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I cannot agree that Southern Rhodesia is a Dominion. If the noble Lord would like to put a Question on the Order Paper, I will do my best to answer it.