§ 2.15 p.m.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House if he would be obliging enough, at rather short notice, to tell us what he considers is the position with regard to the Business to-day in 717 respect of the London Government Bill? We are seemingly in a very difficult position. We have a long way over 100 Amendments on the Paper and I understand that more are being added to it to-day. Some of these additional Amendments come from Government sources, and in so far as they are concessions we welcome them, but here we are at the beginning of only the last day but one for the discussion of this Bill before the Recess. Some of our people are being over-pressed. I think we ought to have some idea from the noble Viscount the Leader of the Government Party, so that we may know exactly how far he intends to go.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD DILHORNE)My Lords, may I perhaps answer this question, as I am in charge of the Bill for the Government? I also was anxious about the progress made on this Bill last night, and I made such inquiries as I cot ld in regard to the position because I could foresee that perhaps it would be right to sit fairly late last night. But such inquiries as I was able to make led me to think that there would be no real difficulty in concluding the Committee stage of this Bill in the allotted time. In regard to the noble Earl's question as to how far we should press to-day, I should say we ought to reach the end of Part VIII and Schedules 14 and 15. In the light of the information I was able to obtain, I myself see no real reason why we should not do so.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHI think that is going a great deal too far. There is a limit to the extent to which the Government in this House of unpaid Members should be forcing an issue of this unmandated character at this pace. It really is not good enough. I do not think in the end that it will enhance the general objectives of the Government if we are forced in this direction.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, I wish to support my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition. We have left to consider over 100 Amendments to the Bill, and probably more to come. It must be remembered that this is an enormous Bill. In fact, it would have been possible to embody its contents in a number of Bills. A number of the clauses are, by their very nature, bound to produce something in the nature of 718 Second Reading speeches and Second Reading debates, because they themselves could have been the subject of separate Bills. There was the debate on children with which we dealt yesterday, and various other matters under the Bill are bound to lead to lengthy debates. Now there are over 100 Amendments left, and the Lord Chancellor who claims to be in charge of the Bill says that we ought to be able to manage with only two Parliamentary sitting days. I think it is really preposterous to imagine that that can be done. It seems to be merely a case of the Government setting themselves the objective of getting the Committee stage finished by Whitsun. It is not essential that the Committee stage should be finished by Whitsun.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHIt is not. You have still until the end of July, and possibly into the next Session. Many a Bill has been finished in part of October, so that is not essential. I think it is utterly unreasonable, and it must be realised that noble Lords on both sides of the House are not accustomed to this kind of late sitting, which is the Government's form of guillotine. I submit to the House that it is not good Parliamentary business; it is not going to get the best out of the House. I hope, therefore, that the Lord Chancellor, or the Leader of the House, who possibly has more real responsibility in the matter—it is for him to judge—would think about the matter again.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I thought about the matter a great deal last night, because I realised that the actual number of Amendments left on the Marshalled List was considerable.
For that reason I was inclined to the view that we ought to have sat later last night. But I made such inquiries as I could, and I received assurances which led me to suppose that there would be no real difficulty in completing the Marshalled List by Thursday night. When I am asked how far we should proceed to-day, I adhere to the view that we should reach the end of Part VIII and Schedules 14 and 15. I am not going to comment upon the course of proceedings yesterday, except to say this, as I said last night: that I do not think we made all the progress yesterday that we might conceivably have made.
§ LORD SILKINI do not know whether the noble and learned Lord realises that there are a number of noble Lords who, after a certain time of the night, just cannot get home. Is that not an important factor that we ought to take into account? Are we to condemn people, who are doing their duty here, sitting from 2 o'clock onwards, not only to spend hours and hours in this place, but to be unable to get a night's rest? I think that there is a limit to the endurance that can be expected of noble Lords. I think that the noble and learned Lord ought to take into account what it is reasonable to expect. After all, this Bill has been guillotined, and noble Lords on this side attach great importance to this Bill. We want to examine it thoroughly. Although the noble and learned Lord may think that it could have been discussed in a shorter time, that, after all, is a matter of opinion only. Noble Lords are entitled to express their views about it and, if you are to say that a noble Lord should not stand up and say what he thinks, that is equivalent to a guillotine. I hope the Government will have second thoughts about pressing this matter too hard.