HL Deb 27 May 1963 vol 250 cc549-51

2.4 p.m.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will refer to the Consumer Council the subject of trading stamps and gift coupons and their effect upon the interests of the consumer as regards both the quality and price of the product and request the Consumer Council to report their findings to Parliament as early as possible.]

THE MINISTER of STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD DERWENT)

My Lords, the consumer Council are an independent body and will not depend upon references from the Government for the work which they undertake. Within their terms of reference they will have freedom to decide what questions to consider and to establish priorities in their programme of work. Nevertheless, if my right honourable friend were to receive evidence that stamp trading or gift coupons were operating against the consumer's interest, he would certainly draw the Council's attention to the matter and put the facts at their disposal.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. Is he aware that there is a sizeable body of consumer opinion in this country to-day which looks upon this type of trading as a slightly dishonest method of exploiting the ignorance of the public? On the other hand, there is another body of opinion which looks upon this type of trading as quite a moral gimmick. Is this not a situation which the Consumer Council were set up specifically to investigate and to advise the public upon their findings?

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, although in fact the noble Lord has asked me only one question, there were two implications in his supplementary. May I, first of all, say that my right honourable friend has not yet received any evidence that stamp trading or gift coupon schemes are operating against the public interest? But the Consumer Council would be undoubtedly influenced in their decision on whether or not to examine a particular question by the volume of consumer criticism which was applied to the question.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will invite his right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade to look to-night at a very popular television programme called "Panorama", which is holding an investigation into the abuses of the consumer interest occasioned by stamp trading? It has forestalled even the President of the Board of Trade. I think if he will look at that, he will find plenty of the evidence which the noble Lord says he requires.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, in view of the fact that my right honourable friend is extremely busy at the moment, I think perhaps it would be more appropriate if I were to look at the programme.

LORD CHORLEY

My Lords, does the Minister's right honourable friend never look at The Times? There has been ample evidence in The Times over the last week or two that there is a scandal here.

LORD DERWENT

There is no evidence as such. There are opinions which have so far been expressed.

LORD AUCKLAND

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that shopkeepers do not have to sell these stamps, and that consumers do not have to go to firms which normally trade in them, and that these stamps do give great benefits to the consumer?

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, my noble friend may or may not be right. I am not going to argue with him about it. But I do not think his observation really comes within the terms of the Question, which is whether my right honourable friend will bring this matter to the attention of the Consumer Council.

LORD LATHAM

My Lords, would the noble Lord say at what point opinions become evidence?

LORD DERWENT

For evidence, one usually has to produce facts.

THE EARL OF SANDWICH

My Lords, would it not help consumers, and indeed, everybody else who is interested in this subject, if the multiple grocers and others who are affronted by this scheme were to explain to the nation of what they are so afraid?

LORD DERWENT

I am sorry to say to my noble friend that I think he also is outside the Question.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, is there any evidence here that consumers are unaware that they are paying for the gifts they receive from stamps?

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, I would suggest to the noble Lord that any form of advertising costs money.

LORD LATHAM

My Lords, would not the noble Lord say that it is evidently the function of the Consumer Council to collect this evidence?

LORD DERWENT

That is not the function of the Board of Trade.

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