§ 2.16 p.m.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will take the necessary steps to see that the proposed special 50 m.p.h. summer speed limit is enforced and not allowed to be treated with the contempt to which we are accustomed in respect of the permanent speed limits.]
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, the enforcement of the law is a matter for the police. Her Majesty's Government are confident that the police will pay special attention to the enforcement of the summer week-end speed limits, to the full extent permitted by their resources.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, would the noble Earl not agree with me that the success or otherwise of this experiment—if I may use the Minister's own word, "this very honest experiment"—to see whether the number of road casualties can be reduced, rests practically entirely upon the degree of universal enforcement? It is only in that way—I think the noble Lord will 556 agree with me—that we can then find out whether a 50 m.p.h. limit is a life-saver or just another accumulation of congestion. May I suggest to the noble Earl that his right honourable friend, the Home Secretary, in London, and his fright honourable friend the Minister of Transport, in the rest of England, Scotland and Wales, can impress upon the 156 police authorities who will have in their hands the enforcement of this experiment to take note that when the Minister and Parliament say 50 m.p.h. they mean 50 m.p.h., not a graduation of anything up to 60 as would please the differing 156 police forces?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am not quite clear where I should begin to answer the noble Lord's series of questions, but I should like to say two things in reply. The first is that although enforcement is clearly an essential part of this experiment, so also is the co-operation of the motoring community. The second point I should like to make is that before this decision was taken the chief constables were consulted.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, will the noble Earl tell us what is the purpose of constantly making regulations when there is no prospect of their being enforced?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I think that I can help the noble Lady about this aspect. My noble friend Lord Jellicoe, answers normally for the Home Office, and my noble friend Lord Chesham, who ordinarily answers for the Ministry of Transport, is unfortunately not available at this moment. But, of course, these regulations are based to some extent upon the experience and the value of previous experiments, and the experience of previous experiments has been favourable up to this point, and I hope will continue to be.
§ THE EARL OF SANDWICHMy Lords, my noble friend speaks of regulations. Are these regulations made by Order in Council? If so, when will they be brought before this House for sanction?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMAll regulations have to be passed, as my noble friend appreciates, under the sanction of Parliament in one way or another. There 557 is no other way of legislating by regulation; but on the question of whether in the particular case it is by Order in Council I should desire to have notice.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, may I thank the noble Viscount the Leader for his intervention—because we are all steadfastly behind the Government in this matter. But, as the noble Lady has said, it is useless making these experimental regulations—which, incidentally, are made under the Road Traffic Act, 1960, which gives the Minister power at any time to vary a speed limit—unless they are enforced. Only in that way can they be effective. If they are not enforced, it is guesswork. Cannot he and the Government use their influence and not wriggle out, if I may use such an unattractive expression, on the technical term that the police alone are effective? We want this experiment to be a success, and to prove whether we can save life or whether it will merely add to congestion.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord from the Cross Benches for having come to my aid about the precise statutory backing for these regulations. I commend his observations to my noble friend. As regards the general part of his question, I entirely agree with what he says about enforcement, but I do not think he was quite fair to my noble friend in describing his Answer either as a "wriggling out" or as purely technical. It is very deep in the constitution of this country that the question of law enforcement resides with the police, and with those whom the police serve, rather than with the central Executive, although the central Executive has an important part to play. But I can assure the noble Lord that we are just as keen on the enforcement of these things, with due regard to the principles as my noble friend enunciated, as I think he would wish us to be.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERWill the noble Viscount not make further use of radar devices for the purpose of enforcing speed limits?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI believe that radar is used. I wish my noble friend Lord Chesham were here ready to answer the noble Baroness. I agree that these modern devices—even though summary jurisdiction courts are somewhat slow 558 to recognise the advance of science in certain cases—have a very useful part to play.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, is not the key to the whole thing that it is impossible to get enough police to cover what is required in enforcement?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMIt is very important to get an adequate force of police, and I am glad the noble Earl has drawn attention to that point.
§ LORD CHORLEYMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that as a matter of common sense the restoration of the mobile police is the only possible effective solution to this problem? Every motorist must realise that.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI am obliged to the noble and learned Lord for his suggestion. I am sure that my noble friend, and other Departments responsible, will note what he says and have a great deal of sympathy with it.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, I am encouraged by the remarks just made by my noble Leader to put this question to the noble Earl. My intention was, while in complete sympathy with the noble Earl's first reply, to ask him the point just raised. Those Members of the House who have recently had occasion to visit the United States will know the extent to which radar and electronic equipment is used for this purpose, because enforcement is something which previously requires a decision on the speed. It was on that point that I was going to ask the noble Earl whether it is to be understood that this country is effectively equipped with the most modern manner of detecting speed which is used in the United States, and whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to embark upon expenditure on a scale which will be necessary for it to be as effective as it is there.
EARL JELLICOEI think that my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport referred to the use of such instruments in his Press conference announcing the proposed imposition of these new speed limits. I would entirely agree about the utility of such devices, and they are in fact, of course, in use with a number of the larger police forces. 559 Perhaps I could mention that a further supply of such instruments is now available for hire from the Home Office for those police forces who would like to avail themselves of the offer.
§ THE EARL OF SANDWICHI am sorry to return to this point, but in the event of power being given to the Minister of Transport to put through these regulations without an Order in Council, would it be possible to arrange for a short debate on the subject in this House in order that Members could give their views? These regulations are highly controversial. At least one very eminent chief constable has said that they are virtually null and void, and that they are quite impossible to administer. Surely this House should have the opportunity of debating the matter, even shortly, before these regulations are put through. Or has the Minister of Transport now become a road dictator?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI think my noble friend has failed to bear in mind the provision in the Statutory Instruments Act, 1946, which puts the remedy in his own hands.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that the Dorset county police have many boards up saying that they check speeds by radar, and that, whether this is true or not, it seems to be effective in reducing speed?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMI feel my noble friend behind me drives too safely to have remembered that.