HL Deb 20 May 1963 vol 250 cc2-4
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what evidence was supplied to the Board of Trade by the Ministry of Transport concerning the suggested withdrawal of the right, held by inspectors of weights and measures for seventy years, of stopping vehicles on the highway.]

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, it is not the practice to divulge interdepartmental correspondence, but I can say that the Ministry of Transport regard the power as out of keeping with present-day conditions on the roads and with the powers of a great many other officials who carry out enforcement work. It dates from a time when vehicles and road conditions were vastly different.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

Yes, but is the noble Lord aware that it is not the slightest use making a statement like that, having on these two occasions when I have asked for specific information, given me none at all? Does the noble Lord not realise that, before the many interests concerned can accept this attitude of the Ministry of Transport, some actual information must be given?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I think that in a matter of this kind in the situation with which we are faced to-day, we must be guided by matters of principle.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

Yes, but does the noble Lord realise that most of the interests concerned in this matter—by which I mean institutes of weights and measures, local authorities and the trade itself—do not agree at all with what is being put forward? And does he not feel that the Government must give some actual reason for that decision?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, the noble Baroness put down a Question relating to the Ministry of Transport view of this matter, which I have endeavoured to answer. It may well be that other people concerned in other ways do not agree with that view. But I think I have answered the Question properly.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

My Lords, I do not wish to weary the House, but may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that I did not ask for the views, but what evidence had been supplied by the Ministry, and so far we have heard of none.

LORD CHESHAM

No, my Lords, I think I came quite clean on that point. I did not refer to evidence. I endeavoured to convey to the noble Baroness what was the gist of representations which had been made from the Ministry of Transport.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, while welcoming the fact that at last the Ministry of Transport are going to be guided by questions of principle, apparently because they have no facts, may I ask whether they would not be influenced by the fact that nearly every important local authority—the city of Glasgow, the city of Birmingham—is most perturbed about the present situation, in which they are going to lose these powers, and feel that it will lead to a great increase in undetected thefts and crimes?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, naturally I was aware that people are disturbed about this, otherwise I am sure that the noble Baroness would never have asked the Question. But on this particular matter I do not know what the noble Lord would wish me to add to what I have said. I will briefly say that there have been reiterated from all sides of your Lordships' House, again and again, the various factors which have to be taken into consideration in considering traffic conditions and road congestion: and that, basically, as I endeavoured to indicate, has produced the representations from the Ministry to which I have referred.

LORD HAWKE

My Lords, could my noble friend tell me what action an inspector of weights and measures is now supposed to take if he sees a coal cart on the road and he has reason to believe that it is carrying bags of coal with less than 1 cwt. for delivery? What action is he supposed to take?

LORD CHESHAM

I think that that is really extending the matter into a debate outside the terms of the Question.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

My Lords, is it? I understood it was the case that, when inspectors stopped a vehicle, it was either to check the weighing machine or possibly to check a sack of coal, or something else such as the noble Lord has suggested. But when they are about to approach the vehicle and it moves off, then presumably, according to the Ministry of Transport, there is nothing they can do. Does it not weaken the detecting power of the inspector if something is wrong?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I imagine that it would be so if an inspector no longer has a right to stop a vehicle anywhere and everywhere that he pleases. But I would ask noble Lords to remember that there are many other classes of inspectors who could also quite well use this right which they have not got.