§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will issue a White Paper showing the estimated net saving on each line closure proposed in the Report, The Reshaping of British Railways, and comprised in the total of 5,000 miles of railway line which it is proposed to close to passengers to effect a net saving of £18 million.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM)My Lords, I would refer the noble Lord to the reply given to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, on April 10. The Railways Board has already agreed to provide Area Transport Users' Consultative Committees with current information on receipts and direct costs attributable to the service in all cases where an objection is lodged to a passenger closure proposal under Section 56(8) of the Transport Act, 1962. The Committees, for their part, will make this information available to objectors. It would not be appropriate for the Government to give the sort of information requested in advance of the Committees' consideration of the cases.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, why should not Parliament know how this figure is made up? Is the noble Lord not aware that many figures in the Beeching Report have now been questioned and that some are known to be wrong; that many local authorities think that their railways are viable, and that private-enterprise firms may well want to contribute to keep their railway going 1178 if they know what the loss is? Is there any reason why, since the information is available, it should go only to Transport Users' Consultative Committees and not to Parliament, not to local authorities, and not, in fact, to the people most closely concerned?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, the noble Lord will recall that, on the occasion of our recent debate, I made a very careful explanation of exactly what was the status of the Beeching Report and the proposals made in it to all our calculations at the present time. He knows, also, that it is the Board who are responsible for producing these figures, and not the Government. It must also be remembered that, until the Board give notice of a closure, the machinery for deciding whether it should take place does not come into operation, and decisions need to be taken in the light of current information about costs. By that, I do not mean that the figures which the railways have put forward are not fairly and properly founded, but that a particular proposal may be some little time away from when the Report was compiled; that there may have been a change in circumstances, and that it is the latest figures which will be required.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I think the noble Lord would agree that it has been generally recognised that, where a closure takes place, it will be a political decision; a decision made by the Minister and, therefore, open to Parliament to criticise or approve. That being so, will the noble Lord say that, before the Minister finally makes his decision in regard to a closure, the facts and figures on which he bases his decision will be made available to Parliament?
§ LORD CHESHAMI cannot exactly say that, my Lords. I can say that the figures will have to be available to the Minister, and that he will have to take them into consideration.
§ LORD SHEPHERDBut how can Parliament exercise its political duty in a political decision if this vital information is not available to Members of both Houses of Parliament?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, there is no secrecy about these figures. These figures are compiled by the members of my own union in the normal course of 1179 their duty. Quite rightly, when it comes to joint consultation with the staff, the officers of the Board disclose the figures to all grades of staff at their L.D.C. meetings and sectional council meetings; so apparently the only people who will not know are those in Parliament.
§ LORD CHESHAMIf the figures are published, then Parliament will know. The point I am making is that there is no secrecy about these figures, in any case, but it is not for the Government to produce them in a White Paper.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, may I say that I do not know how far these figures are well known to the public? The public are the people who are going to suffer so far in respect of passenger traffic, over quite long lengths of line in places, and the people in those areas cannot judge whether or not, as part of the population so affected, they ought to make representations to the Government unless they have the figures we are asking for.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, the figures will be available at the time.
§ LORD CHESHAMAt the time the closures are considered.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHThen, of course, you will want to shut the door after the horse has gone. That is not fair to the public. I have never heard such an astounding proposition.
§ LORD CHESHAMNo, my Lords. And it is not fair to the Government, either, to say that; because, as I am trying to make clear, the figures will be available at the time the closure is considered.
§ LORD LATHAMMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the reason for not publishing them is that the figures are not reliable?
§ LORD CHESHAMI would not agree with anything of the kind. Experience in the past has shown that these figures are reliable.
§ LORD STONHAMBut we are not able to judge whether or not they are 1180 reliable unless we know what the figures are. The noble Lord said a great deal of what I knew, but he refuses to tell me the one thing I want to know, and that is what these individual closures will save. I cannot recall any occasion when a thing which should be properly known to Parliament has been withheld or suppressed in this way. Can the noble Lord tell me: if a Question is put down, either written or oral, about an individual closure or closures, will the Government refuse to answer it?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I have already referred the noble Lord to a previous answer that I made to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn. I repeat that it is not for the Government to give these figures. They will be published and made available in the manner stated at the time any particular closure comes up for consideration.
LORD HAWKEMy Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that there is already a considerable feeling of frustration among the commuters on the feeder lines in Sussex which are alleged to be going to be closed, and is he aware of the fact that they cannot ascertain from any quarter the degree of profit or loss on these particular lines?
They would like now to start considering ways and means of making these lines profitable rather than having them closed.
§ LORD CHESHAMThe operative words are "alleged to be going to be closed". These figures will be made available when a proposal to do so is actually put forward.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, these closures which are alleged to be made are referred to the in the Beeching Report, which we have been told must be accepted as a whole—
§ LORD STONHAMBut, my Lords, the Beeching Report said so. Can the noble Lord say whether any proper public service will be served by the suppression, temporarily or otherwise, of this important public information? Will the noble Lord also say what useful public services will be served by deferring the publication of this information?—because if it were made available now it 1181 is likely that many proposed closures would not come to a Transport Users' Consultative Committee?
§ LORD CHESHAMI do not agree, in the first instance, that there is any question of suppressing the figures, and the second part of the noble Lord's supplementary I have already dealt with.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, is the noble Lord not suppressing information when we have given a global figure of £18 million justifying the recommendations of the Beeching Report? Why cannot people in the neighbourhood know now how they are to be affected? On the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, many people had to make other arrangements regarding business and residence.
LORD CHESHAWhen notice is given in regard to a proposal the information will be available and there will be adequate time for people to consider any objections.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord a simple question as a Parliamentarian? What purpose is the noble Lord's silence serving?
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHAnswer!
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLCan the noble Lord be allowed to answer my question? The noble and learned Viscount the Leader of the House has pulled him down. Is the noble Lord afraid that a woman might strike at the truth?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, my noble Leader pulled me back because the noble Baroness was still on her feet. In point of fact she had not sat down after asking the question. The noble Lady asked what purpose is served and, apart from the fact, as I have already explained, that it is inappropriate for the Government to produce these figures at the present time, I cannot see that there is any particular object furthered by producing them at the present time, when notices of closures have not yet been made.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that 1182 when it comes to the point of a closure and a hearing before the Transport Users' Consultative Committee, even if the figures are then available it is impossible for any member of the public to address an argument on them, to cross-examine the Board, or to have anything to do with them? They are simply treated by that time as something between the Board and the Transport Users' Consultative Committee themselves.
§ LORD CHESHAMI should not have thought that that was the position.
§ LORD ARCHIBALDMy Lords, would the noble Lord, if he considers that it is not for the Government to produce these figures, kindly ask Dr. Beeching to release them?
§ LORD WOLVERTONWe must have regard to the cost of improving many of these roads. Some of the roads in the Highlands, especially in the Inverness and Wick area, where closures are contemplated, are not at all good roads. Large sums of money must be spent to improve those roads and one must compare the overall costs. If we do not know the figures this cannot be done.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, as I have already indicated, that is precisely the kind of consideration to which my right honourable friend must have regard.
§ LORD ARCHIBALDMy Lords, may I have an answer to my question, please? I asked whether, as the Government state that it is not for them to produce the figures, the noble Lord would ask his right honourable friend the Minister of Transport to beseech Dr. Beeching to release the figures.
§ LORD CHESHAMI am always happy to consider any constructive suggestion from the noble Lord.
§ LORD STONHAMIs the noble Lord aware that his answers in this important matter have been quite disgraceful, in the Parliamentary sense, and also that every answer given has cast reflection, and undoubted reflection, on the accuracy of these figures? Indeed, we already know 1183 that many are inaccurate. The only way to resolve the doubts would be to publish the figures and let us know.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)My Lords, I do not consider that my noble friend's conduct has been disgraceful in any sense. He has shown admirable patience when quite disgracefully tried.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I did not say that the noble Lord's conduct had been disgraceful. I said that the answers had been disgraceful in a Parliamentary sense, and I am sure that every Member of this House thinks so.
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, while not wishing to enter into a dispute with my noble friend Lord Stonham, as I represent a trade union whose members include a number of people who presented these figures and who are responsible for their compilation, may I say that on the basis on which they were asked to compile them, these figures are as accurate as they can be?
§ LORD COLYTONMy Lords, before my noble friend replies, might I ask what Motion is before the House?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, there is no Motion. We are dealing with the first Question on the Order Paper. It is, of course, for the House to say how long it wishes to pursue this particular matter by question and answer. I thought myself that we were reaching the point at which the House might wish to pursue the next Question.