§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state the number of prosecutions brought under Regulation 73 (relating to the number of passengers carried in a private motor car) and Regulation 86 (relating to the degree of control by the driver of a private motor car) of the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1955, and the number of convictions obtained in both cases during the year 1962.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, information is, I regret, not available in this form. Prosecutions brought under Regulation 73 are shown in the statistical returns under the heading of either using a vehicle in a dangerous condition or using a vehicle when dangerously loaded, and prosecutions under Regulation 86 are included among "Other offences".
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, I thank the noble Earl for the frankness of his reply. Will he tell me how the Government reconcile it with the statement made to your Lordships by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport on April 24, recorded in column 1202 of the OFFICIAL REPORT [Vol. 248 (No. 72)] which I quote:
Regulations 73 and 86 have been found in practice to provide a sufficient basis for prosecution in cases where an excessive number of passengers have been carried in private motor cars."?701 If there are no figures upon which to base that assumption, would the noble Earl be kind enough to tell me how that statement is made?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for the frankness of his supplementary. My answer is that, while I am not able to produce the precise figures for 1962 for the reason which I have given, and also because the statistics for 1962 for this type of offence are not yet available, my noble friend's reply was based on the general experience of the Ministry of Transport and of the police. It was not based upon precise statistical information, because that is not available, but upon the general and practical experience of those who are closest to this particular legislation.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, may I offer a word of congratulation to the noble Earl in trying to wriggle out of a very embarrassing question? It was not based on fact because there are no facts, and never have been, in the statistical survey issued by the Home Office. Would the noble Earl not agree with me that if there are nearly one million prosecutions a year instituted against motorists for motoring offences, and as this is a very grave and growing offence, the statistics issued by the Home Office should specifically cover this and not be lumped into a general classification which can be anything or nothing?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord thought I was trying to wriggle out of answering his supplementary question and succeeded. In fact, I can assure him I was not attempting to wriggle out of the question, but giving him a reply to the supplementary question which he asked me. If he would feel it is in the general interest that the statistics which are published in the return of offences should be presented in a different form, then, of course, I can assure him that in future years we will certainly look into that possibility; but I think it should be done in a way which does not put an undue strain upon either men or machines, as that will mean the statistics will come out even later than they do at the present time. So far as 1962 is concerned, there is the difficulty that the statistics are now in the machines, and it would mean interrupt- 702 ing the work of the machines to extrapolate the precise information the noble Lord wants.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, will the noble Earl accept my thanks for the helpfulness of his reply, and would he convey to his right honourable friend the view that the noble Earl's suggestion that these statistics might be further broken down would be most helpful? Would he take into consideration the number of small motor cars going on the roads to-day, multiplying in their thousands every month, with the growing fear of overloading, because the smaller they get the heavier the load of passengers they carry? It would be very helpful to have the figures broken down in the way I have suggested.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, will the noble Earl also have in mind that although there are no statistics to support the contention of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, there is a widespread impression among those who have practical experience (to use the noble Earl's own terms) that a change such as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has suggested would be extremely illuminating and helpful?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I will bear the Minis and Imps and, indeed, the noble Baroness's view in mind in passing on these suggestions to my right honourable friend.