§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:]
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that it is now virtually impossible for pedestrians to cross the road in Belgrave Square, where the traffic is both fast and almost continuous; and whether they will take steps to meet this, problem by means of suitably placed traffic lights and pedestrian refuges.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM)My Lords, I agree that traffic at peak times is fast and heavy. There are traffic islands at each corner of the Square which are helpful to pedestrians who wish to cross to the centre. These pedestrians are relatively few, and their number would not justify the provision of traffic signals. The installation of additional refuges would be likely to cause some hazard to moving traffic. So I can only ask that more pedestrians use the traffic islands, and at busy times be even more careful than usual. The Commissioner of Police agrees with my conclusions. As for the roads leading into the Square, I am aware that pedestrians find some difficulty in crossing at certain times. I can see no easy solution, but I should be glad to look into the matter further in consultation with the highway authority, if the noble Lady has any particular places in mind.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply. Has he considered 418 whether the islands at the corner of the Square are sufficient, in view of the fact that in the main part of the Square the road is exceptionally wide and that it is a long way for a pedestrian to travel to the corner in order to cross? Also, is the noble Lord aware that there are a number of Embassies located either in the Square or adjacent to it, and that the difficulty of crossing in the centre of the Square is a source of serious concern to the staffs of those Embassies and to distinguished foreigners who visit them and who may not be familiar, or as familiar as we are, with the habits of our English traffic? Will the noble Lord have these facts in mind in looking at the situation again?
§ LORD CHESHAMYes, my Lords. I had thought, or tried to think, about most of those facts, but the fact remains that part of the trouble is due to the pedestrian traffic being so light. There is no reason for them to go to the centre of the Square except to collect their car or to go into the private garden, to which access is limited to quite a small number of people. While I am aware of the problem caused to the few, I should certainly like to think about it again in view of what the noble Lady has said. I do not see any solution to it at present.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, the noble Lord's answer seems rather to imply that the slaughter of a few is relatively unimportant. It is not only a question of crossing from the north pavement to the gardens in the centre. Will he consider the position of a person who works on the north side of the square and wishes to get, say, to Victoria Station every evening, or to reach his office from Victoria Station every morning, at the peak hours?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, my preliminary reaction to this is still that it does not seem to be necessary to cross to the centre of the Square to do so.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERPerhaps the noble Lord would be good enough to experiment.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, could the noble Lord say, if he has not considered this, how many roads these unfortunate people would have to cross, starting from the north, in order to reach Victoria Station?
§ LORD CHESHAMYes, my Lords.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, could we know the number?
§ LORD CHESHAMThree.
§ THE EARL OF LUCANMy Lords, may we take it from the noble Lord's Answer that Her Majesty's Government have adopted as a principle that pedestrians do not have equal rights on the roads with motor traffic?
§ LORD CHESHAMNo, my Lords, you may not take anything of the kind as an adopted principle. The principle that should be deduced from my Answer is that pedestrians are a traffic component, as are all the other components of traffic, and I think they should be treated gas such.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, would the noble Lord perhaps ask his statisticians, who from time to time give us such good information, whether there is a larger percentage of pedestrian accidents in one-way traffic roads in comparison with other places? I see many of the one-way traffic places where it is absolute terror for pedestrians to cross at all.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, without having the figures at my finger tips, I can say in general that the introduction of the one-way scheme in London has resulted in a decrease of accidents to pedestrians. But if the noble Earl would like, I will try to get out some more figures on these matters and let him have them.