§ 2.35 p.m.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ 1[The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the present cost of meat marketing and its aim of ensuring that the housewife enjoys cheap meat in return for high farm subsidies, they will make a statement showing how much of the present wholesale price cuts are being passed on to the shopper.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF DUNDEE)My Lords, since the beginning of this year the wholesale prices for British beef and pork have fallen on average by about 20 per cent. There is no official information about retail prices, but the weekly price-lists of three large chains of multiple butchers show that their retail prices for beef and for pork have fallen during this period by up to 18 per cent. according to the different cuts. The National Federation of Meat Traders, who have been collecting returns from some of their members, inform me that their returns show reductions of the same order.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, without wishing any discourtesy to the Minister, I do not really feel that the reply he has given gets a great deal further concerning the last part of my Question. I am wondering whether the Government would be prepared to state that the fall in the wholesale price of meat compensates the taxpayer for the additional cost arising from the price guarantees to home producers. Does the noble Earl feel that that is balancing out?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I should be glad to go as far with the noble Lady as she likes, but this does seem to be a little outside the original Question. I think that, if she will look at the Answer given by the Minister in another place yesterday on a rather wider Question, she will find some observations relevant to it.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYNo. With respect, I have read that. Is the Minister aware that there always seems to be difficulty in getting details of prices as they affect the shoppers? We never can get a straight answer from the Government on this particular matter. I wonder whether I might ask the noble Earl a question on this matter. Would the Government consider setting up a meat commission, on which consumers are represented, to co-ordinate imports and home-produced supplies? Would the noble Earl not agree that, if this were done, they would find out whether the benefits of lower prices were being passed on to the housewife?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I cannot say at Question Time whether it would be a good thing to have a meat commission. But I think the evidence which we have is as much as we could reasonably be expected to get in present circumstances. That showed that there have been, since the beginning of January, reductions of up to 20 per cent. in some of the cuts of beef, and of 15 per cent. in others. Of course, prices are not uniform in every butcher's shop. You cannot, therefore, guarantee that if there has been an overall reduction of a certain percentage in prices it will be reflected in every shop which you might happen to go into.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that farmers are just as worried about the present situation as we are, and with good reason? And is it not the case that the Government have no information on this subject, and should have information? For example, why is it that a forequarter of beef is ls. a lb. in Smithfield, and cuts from it are 4s. to 4s. 6d. a lb. in the shops? That is the kind of situation which the Government ought to 263 look into. It is no good paying £1 million a year in subsidies if in times of glut the consumer is not getting the benefit from it.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, the noble Lord need not tell me anything about the worries of farmers in comparison with ours. I have my full share of them. I think that to get an official survey of average meat prices regularly month by month would be a very expensive operation, and very difficult administratively. I should not care to undertake to do anything like that without looking into it much more carefully.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, can the noble Earl say whether he is aware of the complete bewilderment of the public at present? They are being told that the price of beef has fallen enormously, which they do not find in the shops; they find only that they will have to pay in taxation for the prices that the Government are paying to the farmers.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, the price of beef has fallen in the shops by about 20 per cent. in the last two months.
§ LORD WILLIAMS OF BARNBURGHMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether the real solution of this problem is not to be pottering about with detailed prices at the moment, but to do something substantial to prevent the chaos that we had last year and have this year,
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I think that is what my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is attempting and proposing to do.
§ LORD WILLIAMS OF BARNBURGHWhen?