THE RAILWAYS BOARD'S PROPOSALS (Hansard, 27 March 1963)

§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)
My Lords, perhaps this would be a convenient moment for me to break in and deliver the statement which is now being made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport in another place. The Railways Board's proposals for reshaping the railway system were published to-day. Copies have been available in the Printed Paper Office since noon. With your Lordships' permission, I will now repeat to the House the statement which is now being made in another place by my right honourable friend. The statement is as follows:
"The Government are greatly indebted to Dr. Beeching and his Board for their comprehensive proposals, which flow from the most massive compilation and systematic analysis of information about our railways ever attempted. We agree that extensive reshaping on the lines now proposed is essential.
"The Report offers a firm prospect of an efficient and modern railway 169 system handling those traffics technically best suited to rail. Reductions in the present subsidy of about £150 million will release economic resources which cart be better used in the national interest elsewhere. The Board's aim is, therefore, wholly consistent with our policy of growth, modernisation and redevelopment.
"The Report is a major contribution to the Government's policy of providing an efficient, economic, and well-balanced transport system for Great Britain as a whole. When the new shape and pattern of the railways are clear we shall have a foundation on which we can create such a system. It is not possible to have effective and efficient co-ordination until we have as a basis a modern 20th century railway system.
"In the meantime, steps are being taken by the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself"— and, of course, the first person throughout this Statement refers to my right honourable friend— "to see that any additional demands on our roads will be met. I am meeting representatives of the bus operators on 9th April. The Railways Board will consult with the road haulage industry.
"The changes proposed by the Board will affect many people, and further careful study and consultation by the Government is necessary. The Railways Board will, of course, be following the agreed procedures for consultation with their staff. The Government, for their part, will pay special regard to the long-term requirements of particular areas, including those arising from planned movements of population and industry.
"I should like now to deal with three main points. First, freight services. Clearly, rationalisation here is of the greatest importance, not merely to the railways' finances, but to industry and commerce. For example, by reducing rail costs and improving methods of distribution, the Railways Board believe a substantial saving can be achieved on the carriage of some types of coal by rail. On freight generally the Board will discuss the future possibilities with their customers. They will 170 also discuss the implications of their proposals with other transport interests.
"Secondly, passenger services: The most controversial part of the plan is the withdrawal of many passenger services. This is necessary if better railway services are to be provided to meet the real needs of the nation. But I must emphasise that, in the procedures to be followed when passenger closures are proposed, Parliament has laid down very extensive safeguards. Under the Transport Act, 1962, each proposal must be published in advance. Objections can be made to the Transport Users' Consultative Committees, which will report to me on any hardship involved. No opposed closure may be carried out without my consent. And I shall take into account all important factors, including social and defence considerations, the pattern of industrial development and possible effects on roads and road traffic.
"The Report makes it clear that in the remoter areas of the country there will be special problems. (This applies not only in Scotland and Wales, but in some parts of England, and to communications with Northern Ireland.) But a widespread network of bus services already exists and I shall see that, where necessary, adequate alternative means of transport are available before a railway passenger closure takes place.
"I recently announced the arrangements for co-operation and coordination made between the Railways and London Transport Boards under the new Transport Act. The Government will closely consider those passages in the Report on suburban commuter services in London and elsewhere.
"My third point is on staff. The effect of the Board's proposals on railway employees must be of special concern to the Board, the unions and the Government. Our railways will require fewer men in future. The best estimate of the total reduction these proposals will give rise to over the next few years is of the order of 70,000. But most of this reduction will be effected by normal wastage and control of recruitment. Actual discharges are not expected to be more than a small proportion of the total 171 staff reduction. The number will depend largely on how far it is possible to arrange for men to move to other work and different areas.
"Even so, there will be problems for those displaced. The Government will do ail they can to help in retraining and placing them. We specially welcome the recent agreement between the Board and the unions representing the Conciliation grades. This does two things: first, it facilitates transfers from one part of the system to another; and, second, it provides fair compensation for those for whom work can no longer be found on the railways.
"The Government will proceed speedily with their consultations and discussions, so that we can soon make a fuller statement."
My Lords, that concludes my right honourable friend's statement.

§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH
My Lords, the House will be obliged to the Leader of the House for the statement he has made on behalf of the Minister of Transport in another place. The Report is only just available to us and, as there are about 140 pages of it, any of us who presumed to talk about it would be very presumptuous. Therefore, we cannot talk about the Report in detail to-day, but a debate will take place in your Lordships' House shortly, when we can discuss the matter more fully.
I should like to ask the Leader of the House—as this point seems to me to be absent from the statement he has made—whether the Government are going to pursue a policy of positive and active co-ordination between the various forms of inland transport. Because in so far as that does not happen, it means that there is a wasteful situation of overlapping between the various systems of inland transport, and we should be glad to have assurances on that point. I have no objection at all to any publicly-owned industry paying its way. Indeed, I prefer that publicly-owned industries should pay their way. It is not going to be easy in the case of the railways, but if it can be achieved legitimately and by proper means, nobody will be more glad than I.
172 May I ask the Leader of the House whether there will be the fullest consultation with the trade unions, who obviously have a vital interest in this matter on behalf of their members working on the railway system? It is profoundly important that there should be the fullest and frankest consultation with the trade unions, in order that they may understand the position and that their point of view may be fully considered. It is intimated that a number of services may be discontinued, and I should like to be assured on that matter. I see that the Consultative Committees will be given an opportunity to consider public objections. But I should like to be assured that the Government will watch out for public reactions very carefully, including, if I may say so, the reactions of local authorities who are entitled to be heard upon a matter of this kind.
Therefore, we do not pronounce on this plan at this moment. We shall study the statement and the Report, and be ready to make fuller observations on the occasion of the debate that is to come. In the statement that the Leader of the House has quoted, there is an indication that a further statement or statements may be made by the Government. I should be glad if the Leader of the House would indicate what areas that statement or those statements will be likely to cover, and when we are likely to hear them.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, for his approach to this matter. With respect, I entirely agree with him that we really all need to read the Report very carefully before committing ourselves to decisions upon it. It is a document of the utmost importance, and I think we all need to reflect upon it as well as to read it. I agree with the noble Lord that it will be possible to debate the matter fairly shortly—I believe, on a Motion, which is in the name of the noble Lord himself, to be moved on May 1. The further statement by the Government to which he referred will not be made until we have ascertained the views of both Houses of Parliament and know the results of the consultations by the Ministry and by the Board which are now to take place. They also, I think, will determine the scope of the 173 statement We shall determine its scope in the light of those consultations and of the opinion of both Houses of Parliament.
I respectfully agree with the noble Lord about the importance of consultations with the trade unions, and I know that this is also the view of my right honourable friend. During the preparation of the plan the Board had regular meetings with the unions. The facts and figures on which the plan is based were explained to the unions and the general implications were discussed. What will happen next is this. Dr. Beeching has told the Government that the Board do not plan to proceed with the passenger closure proposals for several weeks. During this time they propose to discuss the plan with the unions at the national level. There will also be discussions at the local level, through the normal consultative machinery, about the effects on the staff of individual closures.
As regards the positive and active co-ordination of transport, of course these are wide phrases, and my own feeling is this. We want to proceed on the basis declared in the Report, on page 4 in particular, where it says: The logical approach to the problem of shaping, or reshaping a railway system is:

(i) to determine the basic characteristics which distinguish railways as a mode of transport;

(ii) to determine under what conditions these characteristics enable railways to be the best available form of transport;

(iii) to determine to which parts of the total national pattern of transport requirements these conditions apply;

(iv) to shape the railway route system and services so as to take advantage of favourable circumstances wherever they exist."
Of course, my right honourable friend will be concerned with both the other methods of transport, passenger and freight, now available to users in this country. I believe I could conscientiously say for myself that I would accept the prescription which the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, has put forward.
As regards the local authorities, I think this also will be done. Of course, the procedure for passenger closures gives the fullest opportunities to objectors, both public and private objectors, to urge questions of hardship before the Committees before even my right honourable 174 friend approaches the matter, with a view to arriving at a conclusion. Even after that has been done, my right honourable friend has to consider the question from the public point of view, including the availability of alternative forms of transport. Certainly it is our intention that in a matter of this kind everybody shall have their say and be taken into account, particularly, I would think, local authorities. I think that covers the noble Lord's points.

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, could the noble and learned Viscount the Leader of the House say whether he would make representations to his right honourable friend to the effect that other interested Government Departments should be consulted before these closures are put to Transport Consultative Committees? I have in mind the kind of case that occurred yesterday, when the President of the Board of Trade announced that, at long last, Aberystwyth was to get its new factory, and to-day the Minister of Transport has announced that Aberystwyth is to lose its railway. Could that kind of stupidity not be avoided?

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My Lords, nobody has said that anybody is to lose anything yet. This is all in the future; and a great deal of consultation and publication, and many public hearings, will have to take place before even my right honourable friend comes to a conclusion. In the meantime, the discussions which he has will include the local authorities, the industrial interests, the National Coal Board and the other providers of transport, in particular bus and road haulage interests. We have asked them to let us have their first views as rapidly as possible, and we shall take these fully into account in assessing the implications of the plan. There is already in existence—and I think this may be the answer to the first point the noble Lord raised—a special inter-departmental working party of senior officials engaged on this task. At all events, I think the Government procedure for consultation is fairly widespread as between Departments.

§ LORD TAYLOR
My Lords, did I hear the noble and learned Viscount aright when he said that no closures would occur for "a few weeks"? Because, if this is so, surely it is a very short time for the necessary consultations.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
No, My Lords, I do not think the noble Lord did hear me aright. I said that no proposals for closures would be made for several weeks. After that, the hearings will have to take place with consultative committees, and the decision to close will not be taken by my right honourable friend until after that.

§ LORD CONESFORD
My Lords, I wonder if I might ask simply for elucidation of a passage which I find extremely obscure? In the "Summary of the Report", you will find, on page 59, that the steps proposed by the Board include: (5) Dampening down of seasonal peaks of passenger traffic and withdrawal of corridor coaching stock held for the purpose of covering them at present". Does this mean that when passenger traffic has shown by its past history that at certain periods it rises to a peak, it is proposed to ensure that the railways shall not, at such periods, be able to meet the proved requirements of the public?

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
I think the actual passage on page 59 was designed for those who had read the body of the Report, and not for those who had not, if my noble friend will forgive me for saying so. I would ask him to spell out the full meaning of the passage from the full text of the Report.

§ LORD CONESFORD
I had endeavoured to do so, but without success.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
We must keep on trying, my Lords.

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, may I point out that it does say exactly that? It says that at peak periods people will have to book seats on trains, and that they will be run exactly the same as air services at peak periods—that is, that those for whom there is not room will not travel.

THE EARL OF GOSFORD
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend, if in fact it is in order to do so, whether he happens to know when another place will be debating this Report?

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
My noble friend tells me it will be towards the end of April.