HL Deb 27 March 1963 vol 248 cc147-9

2.40 p.m.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government when they propose to establish an organisation independent of the pharmaceutical industry empowered to subject drugs to an adequate test before they are distributed, having regard to the recent warning from the industry that Imipramine and Marzine may cause fœtal abnormalities.]

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HEALTH (LORD NEWTON)

My Lords, my right honourable friends the Health Ministers expect to receive shortly a further Report from the Joint Sub-Committee on the Safety of Drugs, and they hope then to make a statement.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, but we have been told this, time after time. Does not the noble Lord recall that last week, in the debate on toxic chemicals, the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, the noble Lord, Lord Sempill, and myself asked, once again, that an independent authority should be set up, but neither the noble Viscount the Minister for Science nor the noble Lord who wound up the debate deigned to answer the point?—although then I said that on the market there were drugs which were being sold to and taken by young pregnant mothers. On Friday the industry warned the doctors that drugs which have been sold in this country for nearly ten years have now, and only now, been submitted to testing on pregnant animals. The doctors were warned that if these drugs were distributed to women they might cause fœtal abnormalities. Is this not a proof that this is a matter of the greatest urgency?

LORD NEWTON

Of course, this is a most important matter, but it is not at all a simple mattter, and I think the noble Baroness realises that. I am sorry, but she will have to be patient for a little while.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, I am sorry to ask another question. How can the noble Lord reconcile his answer—saying that it is not a simple matter—with the fact that immediately following the thalidomide tragedies America introduced legislation of the kind for which I am asking? Scandinavia did the same, and many other countries have recognised that if the industry is given this free hand then it appears it gets irresponsible and is prepared to put on the market, and keep on the market, drugs which have never been subjected to adequate testing.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I do not think it is reasonable to say that anybody is irresponsible or has been irresponsible about this matter, whether manufacturers or members of the noble Baroness's own profession who prescribe so many of these drugs. It is not a simple question, if only because the noble Baroness's question to me is concerned with subjecting drugs to adequate testing before distribution. She herself knows that the two drugs she mentioned have been distributed for years. Imipramine, for instance, has been on the market for over four years and is obtainable on prescription only, and Marzine for ten years. Whatever machinery we may have for securing that drugs are tested adequately before distribution, there will always remain the risk that drugs that have been available and used for many years may be discovered to have side effects which previously may not have been envisaged or discovered.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, has the noble Lord seen the circular which Burroughs Wellcome sent to all doctors in this country, saying what he says: that these drugs have been circulated for many years but only now have they been tested on pregnant animals? I am saying that the Ministry should have said that all these drugs should have been taken off the market until a test was made on a pregnant animal.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I know about the statement of the chemists, but the fact is that all we can do, when a drug has been in use for many years, and something new is discovered about it, is to see that adequate warning should be given. There is nothing else we can do about it. And that is what has been done in the case of these two drugs.

LORD SILKIN

My Lords, may I draw the attention of the Minister to the terms of the Question which, by implication, assume that there are new drugs and that this Committee will be investigating new drugs before they are distributed? The question of existing drugs is another problem.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord. That is precisely what I was trying to say to the noble Baroness, not very successfully, in one of my earlier supplementary answers. The point is that in the Question she refers first to the testing of new drugs before they are placed on the market, and then goes on to refer to two drugs which, as I have explained, have been on the market for years. I am obliged to the noble Lord for emphasising this.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, that makes the matter even worse. They have been on the market for years; yet, after the thalidomide incident, they have not been retested on pregnant animals.

BARONESS HORSBRUGH

My Lords, could the noble Lord say when a new drug becomes an existing drug?

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, when it is no longer new.