§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government why outside contractors who use prison labour are not required to stamp the prisoners' insurance cards.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, an employer is required to pay National Insurance contributions in respect of only those employees whom he employs under contract of service. Prisoners in the hostel scheme, who are granted daily parole in order to enable them to follow the employment for which they have been engaged as individuals by outside employers, are employed under such a contract and their National Insurance cards are stamped by the employer accordingly. Where, however, the prison authorities contract, for example, with a farmer, to supply a working party of so many prisoners for so many days, there is no contract of service between the farmer and the prisoners. They are performing work set them by the prison authorities in the same way as a work party on a prison farm or in a prison workshop; such work is governed by the Prison Rules and is not performed under a contractual relationship.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that farmers, building contractors and others who employ prisoners in this way pay the full trade union rates of wages, and that to deprive the prisoners, who may be earning only a few shillings a week, of their rights in this matter, is really a sort of legal fraud, and has a serious effect on their position 1114 when they come out of prison? If their cards were stamped, as they should be, they would be in benefit. As it is now, they are in a wholly unjust position. Will not the noble Earl have another look at this particular aspect of the problem?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am aware, of course, that the full wages are paid by the outside employers. But I am also aware of two other facts. The first is that the supply of prison labour to outside employers is inevitably regulated by the demand, and that demand fluctuates very widely. A prisoner who is eligible for work outside may therefore find himself employed in that way for only a few days and at irregular intervals, and contributions paid in respect of those few days would be of little or no benefit to him. But there is another fact which I think the noble Lord would also wish to bear in mind, and it is this. I suggest that it would be wrong to treat prisoners working in a party supplied to an outside employer differently from those working outside on behalf of the prison authorities—for example, in a prison farm outside the prison—or, indeed, inside the prison on an order from an outside firm. I feel that those two considerations also should be borne in mind.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, with all respect, is not the proper answer that all prisoners should have their cards stamped?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, the whole question of stamping cards, as the noble Lord is well aware, raises other and wider issues. I think there is to be a debate in the near future on the whole question of prison conditions. I should be glad to discuss this issue; but I would suggest, since it involves rather wider matters, that it might be better to discuss them in that context.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, the point raised by my noble friend Lord Taylor is entirely relevant. As the noble Earl said, it would be quite wrong to treat prisoners working in prison in a different way from those working outside prison. Therefore, all the cards should be stamped. But is the noble Earl aware that there has been a particular case, of a man who worked for forty years continuously, who found, on coming out of prison on the completion of his only 1115 term of imprisonment, that he had been out of benefit for fifteen months and would not be again in benefit until February, 1964? He worked in Kew Gardens while a prisoner, and if his card had been stamped he would have been all right. He has been rendered destitute, and his case should be looked into.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I should be glad to look into any case the noble Lord wishes to bring to my attention, but I suggest that the wider issues here might be better discussed in our forthcoming discussion on prison conditions in general.