§ 3.35 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, I understand that my right honourable friend has just made a statement in another place in the following terms, and with the permission of the House, I should like to repeat it here. I have no ground for thinking that M. Bidault is now in this country. Police inquiries into the possibility of his presence here have been in progress for some time and are still proceeding, but so far without result. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary's permission for him to enter the country was neither sought nor granted. Since there is no record in recent months of his having been admitted in the regular manner, it is evident that he arrived illegally.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, the position 345 seems to grow stranger and stranger. I think it is rather important from the point of view of the British public as a whole, that this matter should be cleared up. I am not intending to criticise the B.B.C. for the interview which was published last night—they seem to have got a scoop of a kind. It was said that the interview with M. Bidault took place some time ago, and though I do not think we were given the exact whereabouts, it was generally assumed that the interview took place in this country. We have already had the statement from Scotland Yard, that they did not know; and yet, within hours of this, it is arranged that, even though, perhaps, the interview took place some time ago, there should be a showing of this film. I suppose there was a consultation between the B.B.C. and somebody in the Government as to whether it was now appropriate to show the film, but we have not had any remark about that. I am not complaining about the actual contents of the statement which the noble Earl has just made, but I think the position needs to be cleared up in the minds of the British public, and certainly in the minds of the French public, unless we are perhaps to incur the sort of estrangement that we all want to avoid.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition for the moderation of his supplementary question. I think I can confirm straightaway that the interview broadcast by the B.B.C. was, in fact, recorded several weeks ago.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHWhere?
EARL JELLICOEI understand that it was recorded in this country. Of course, as noble Lords will know, there has never been any question of the Government's allowing or disallowing an individual programme of this kind; and in the past noble Lords have been jealous—and in my view, rightly jealous—of the complete independence of the B.B.C. But I would wish to confirm that at no stage did the Government express approval of the programme.
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether the B.B.C. paid a fee for the interview, and whether the money was paid to, and actually received by, M. Bidault?
LORD REAMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl a further supplementary? Were Her Majesty's Government approached in any way by the B.B.C. as to whether it would or would not be an appropriate time to produce the interview?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, perhaps I may take the two supplementaries seriatim. I am afraid that I have not in my possession the information that would enable me to answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Henderson. With his permission, I will seek to obtain it, and will either communicate that information to him or, if he would prefer to put down a Question on that point, will answer that Question or arrange for it to be answered. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Rea, it is my understanding that Her Majesty's Government were aware that the B.B.C. had had an interview with M. Bidault, but (if I may repeat what I said before) there was no question of the Government's being asked to approve or disapprove the broadcast in question.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, can the noble Earl say whether he has any evidence of how M. Bidault got into this country and of how he got out?
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, since no visas are at present required on passports for travel between the two countries may I assume that, although the noble Earl said it appeared that M. Bidault entered this country illegally, he might have entered quite legally if he was not especially recognised by somebody examining the passport without a visa, because that would be within reasonable practice. Is that the position?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I think the noble Earl's assumptions are perfectly correct. It is my understanding that the most probable explanation is that he came with false documents rather than that he completely evaded our normal immigration control.
§ LORD MOLSONMy Lords, in view of what the Minister of State has said, 347 with which we are quite familiar, that the B.B.C. is entirely independent and not under Government control, I should have expected to find that the Government knew nothing about this interview until it appeared on the programme yesterday. Are we to understand from the Minister of State that the B.B.C. did inform Her Majesty's Government that this programme was going to appear—informed them, but did not ask for any comment—and that no comment was made by Her Majesty's Government? That seems to be a peculiar state of affairs.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, it is my understanding that the B.B.C. did not inform Her Majesty's Government whether this programme which they had in their possession might or might not appear.
§ LORD MOLSONBut did they inform Her Majesty's Government that they had this programme and that it would appear at some time? Is that a correct understanding?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I think the first part of the noble Lord's question is correct. The second part, that it might appear at some time, is not correct. It is my understanding that the B.B.C., in any communication they may have had with Her Majesty's Government, did not indicate whether this programme was likely to appear, or when.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I am fully in agreement about the importance of the independence and impartiality of the B.B.C. That is common ground all over the House. On the other hand, here is a case where I think the majority of people feel that there has been a great error of taste, and also something that is liable to do great damage to our relations with the French, as well as being an interference with the internal affairs of France. The question I want to ask is: is there any possibility of the Government's consulting with the B.B.C. over the possibility of appointing a panel of two or three distinguished and independent people to whom doubtful cases of this kind could be referred for their advice? That would not interfere with the independence of the B.B.C. and would not involve interference by the Government. But something should be done to prevent the likelihood of such an eventuality as this recurring.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am sure that all noble Lords will echo the sentiments of my noble friend with regard to this problem and with regard to Anglo-French relationships. I should like an opportunity of passing on the suggestion he has made, which I am sure deserves careful consideration.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, may I say at once that we should be exceedingly doubtful about panels being set up from time to time on this or other issues to decide on consultations of this kind, because that would completely ruin the general independence of the British Broadcasting Corporation. I understand the anxiety of the noble Marquess—I am not criticising. His mind has been roving around to find some sort of solution. But as to setting up a panel and regulations for the consideration of these matters, this would destroy the basis of the Charter of the B.B.C. and I do not want that to happen. May I ask the noble Earl another and perhaps more difficult question? Have Her Majesty's Government, in view of the furore created, not only here but in France, yet considered the question as to whether there might be an application for political asylum, and, in the event of such an application being made, what their attitude would be?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am sure that what the noble Earl has said in regard to my noble friend's suggestion shows that this is a matter on which we should certainly not be precipitate. I hope that what I said originally demonstrates that Her Majesty's Government are just as jealous as any noble Lord in this House in regard to the complete independence of the B.B.C. I think, with respect, that the noble Earl's second supplementary question is, in fact, another matter which raises different issues.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, will the noble Earl reject out of hand the suggestion of the noble Marquess?
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I would only say that I did not intend this panel to have any executive power: it was merely to be advisory. But I felt that it might be of assistance to the B.B.C. and the Government to have such a body.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, I would merely remark that I would not reject out of hand any suggestion made by the noble Marquess.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, will the noble Earl say if, when Her Majesty's Government knew this film had been taken, they advised or suggested to the B.B.C. that it should not be shown?
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, I am sorry that I was late for this statement. I was listening to similar Business in another place. But, on this question of the B.B.C., is the noble Earl aware that if the Government wish to prevent the B.B.C. from showing something, or announcing something, then the Government can do it; but they must put it in writing and the B.B.C. have the right to publish it? May I lend my own support to what my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition has said? I think that the independence of the B.B.C. is worth preserving. After all, the Government have urged the B.B.C. to be competitive and to be enterprising; and if ever there was a piece of enterprise in the history of broadcasting, then this was it.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am, of course, aware of the provision to which the noble Lord has drawn attention, but it is difficult to reconcile the operation of that provision with the independence of the B.B.C.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, does the noble Earl know whether the B.B.C. invited M. Bidault to visit this country in order to make the picture, or did they discover him when he was here?