HL Deb 04 March 1963 vol 247 cc237-40

2.45 p.m.

LORD MERRIVALE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper:

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make available the draft agreement proposed to be made by the Minister subject to the provisions of Clause 25 of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.]

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD)

Yes, my Lords. I have arranged to place copies of the draft agreement on sugar with the Irish Republic in the Printed Paper Office. The Press notice published on November 1, 1962, gave full details of this agreement and this also will be available in the Printed Paper Office.

LORD MERRIVALE

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his reply. I have just received a copy of the Press release and of the draft agreement. I think it is a question of interpreting the two differently. But play I ask my noble friend whether the fact that the draft agreement is in the Printed Paper Office means that it is generally available and, if it is not, will he be prepared to lay it on the Table? I presume that he will be referring to it to-morrow on the Second Reading of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.

LORD ST. OSWALD

No, my Lords, the draft agreement is not generally available. The Press release gave all the essentials of the agreement; but it is not normal practice to publish the text of international agreements before they are signed.

LORD MERRIVALE

My Lords, I thank my noble friend. But is it not curious, then, if to-morrow he is to refer to the Press release and not to an agreement? And if he is to refer to an agreement, should he not then lay it on the Table, which would make it generally available?

LORD ST. OSWALD

My Lords, I have made it available in the Printed Paper Office for any noble Lords who may be taking part in the debate. What would be curious, as I have tried to explain to my noble friend, is if it were in fact published, as he is apparently requesting, before signature.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, is it usually the practice to enter into binding legislation before Parliament is fully informed of the facts?

LORD ST. OSWALD

My Lords, Parliament is going to be fully informed of the facts.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

But it will not know exactly what is in the agreement. How is that to be known?

LORD ST. OSWALD

My Lords, the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition can obtain the information easily by going to the Printed Paper Office.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL

My Lords, can my noble friend tell us how much per annum this draft agreement is likely to cost Her Majesty's Treasury when it is ratified?

LORD ST. OSWALD

My Lords, it will not cost Her Majesty's Government any fixed sum. The fact is that it was expected that it would cost, in the first year, £150,000. In point of fact, it may be that it will cost much less than this, possibly nothing at all.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, may I ask, with regard to the sugar agreement, whether the Government have consulted the main bodies in the trade about these details before the final drafting? If not, and the agreement is not to be published, how can the trade be expected to get into touch with Parliament about it?

LORD ST. OSWALD

My Lords, there was nothing outside the Press release that the trade would need to know in order to approach Members of Parliament about it.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

That is the Government's opinion.

LORD MERRIVALE

My Lords, can my noble friend say why it is not Her Majesty's Government's intention to give the other details which are pertinent to this question, as his right honourable friend the Minister said, in answer to a Question on February 18, that all relevant things (he used the word "things") were included? But there are other matters which are not perhaps so relevant but which are of great interest to the commercial interests involved. They would like to know about them. Could my noble friend say the reason why the general picture cannot be made readily available?

LORD ST. OSWALD

My Lords, I think I have explained that all the details necessary are known. The draft agreement itself has now been placed in the Printed Paper Office—my noble friend has himself already obtained a copy. Therefore, any noble Lord wishing to take part in a debate in Parliament on the subject can be in possession of the draft agreement. But it is not international practice to publish such an agreement before signature.