PART II (Hansard, 30 July 1963)

§ LORD HASTINGS
My Lords, these Amendments, Nos. 204 to 241, are all in the Schedules. I think that there is only one that I need mention, because the others of any importance have already been mentioned in connection with Amendments which I have already moved and which have been accepted. This Amendment is No. 204, which deals with the Lancashire and Cumberland River Authorities. Your Lordships will remember that we had a great deal of 1107 argument on this problem all through the time the Bill was in your Lordships' House. Then it went to another place and the arguments were pressed even more strongly than they had been here. As noble Lords are well aware, the wellbeing of the Lake District is a matter of passionate concern, not only in the Northern counties, but nationally, and even outside this country, because it is such a well-known feature and such an attraction to tourists. Her Majesty's Government do not believe that the case has been answered on its merits, particularly on the technical and managerial issues, and we do not believe our arguments have been in any way impaired; but, in the last resort, the matter remains one of opinion as to what is best for the welfare of the district.
It happened that the Government's view on this proposal in the Bill, that a wider unit of management in the North West would afford the better protection for the beauties we all wish to preserve because it would automatically bring into consideration a wide range of potential sources of water alternative to the lakes and valleys of the Lake District itself, was not accepted. But the Government have felt it right, in this unique case, to let what they believe to be the proper technical solution fall for the time being before this widespread and popular sentiment against amalgamation.
The noble Lord, Lord Henley, will be very pleased about this, and those who have supported him will certainly congratulate him on the result of his charming and obstinate battle. I would just point out that we have not accepted the Amendment which was moved by the noble Lord and by his colleagues in another place, because that would have divided up an existing river board area; and if it had been done in the way they wanted we felt it would have thrown a much heavier financial burden on the Cumberland River Board Authority than they perhaps appreciated. Secondly, it would result in only one river authority area being in the Bill which would have been made up out of a division of an existing area. All the others are amalgamations; there are no divisions or split river boards. That would have meant from the technical, administrative, financial, and staff points of view a major Amendment of the Bill in a great many 1108 parts, which we felt was something that could not be undertaken and was inadvisable. Therefore we have preferred to leave these two areas as they are. The two new river authorities for Lancashire and Cumberland will now be the Lancashire and Cumberland River Board Areas, but the Government hope that in due course they will find they would rather be together and that we were right after all. I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.

LORD HENLEY
My Lords, I am especially grateful to the Government for having given way on this matter, because I very much sympathise with their contention that the case is a difficult one to make on its merits. When I argued the case on the Committee stage, and when I moved another Amendment on the Report stage, I said to the noble Lord who was in charge of the Bill that I thought it was a toss up either way, and whichever way one looked at the argument one could make out a strong case. So I think it is very much to the credit of the Government that, while being still firmly convinced that their own arguments are best, they have given way. I think they felt it should be clear to the public that they have strongly in mind here the amenity question, and that is why they have given way. They still believe that their solution is the better one, but they feel that it will not appear to be so in the public eye if they do not give way on this. In my turn, I hope that we on the Cumberland and Lancashire River Board will really be able to "make a go" of this, so that the suggestion put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, that we may have doubts about it, will not prove to be true.
I am sorry that the Government did not accept my Amendment as a whole, because it seemed to me that taking the whole of these National Parks into one area would have been a better solution. I am not sure that I agree with the noble Lord that we did not appreciate the financial burden that we might be taking on. I argued that case on the Report stage, and I think I made as much of it as the Government made on their side.
1109 I still think that this particular solution, of having the whole of the National Parks in this one area, would have been the better one. Nevertheless, what the Government have given us is a valuable concession, and when I thank them very much I am sure I do so on behalf of all lovers of the Lake District. Although when the Bill went through your Lordships' House in Committee the Government made many invaluable concessions on amenity interests and, in particular, with regard to Clause 93, nevertheless we still felt that if we were going to safeguard this area we must have the control in our own hands. It is with great gratitude that I thank the noble Lord, who I am sure has played a considerable part in bringing this about.

§ LORD FORSTER OF HARRABY
My Lords, I should like to join the noble Lord, Lord Henley, in expressing gratitude to the Government for the inclusion of this Amendment. It does not go as far as that for which we asked on the Committee stage and the Report stage, but it is a great improvement on the original proposal.

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, at this stage of the Bill it is a little unfortunate, and perhaps a little naughty, to introduce discord, but I am sorry that this Amendment is going forward. I think the Minister's original proposals were correct. Now the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, has said that, the case having not been made out on merit, the Government have let their heart rule their head and given way to something which they think is inferior to their original proposal. I think that is unfortunate. I am all in favour of amenity and I think it should be encouraged, but some of those associated with amenity go a little far and wide.
At this stage of the Bill perhaps I may do a little reminiscing. Reference was made to the pleasures of the Lake District. When the late Lord Dalton was Minister of Town and Country Planning there was an outcry against the Electricity Board's action in putting some electricity wires across part of the area. He asked me to go down to look into it and see what the trouble was about. To cut a long story short, as I was walking down one lane with a group of officials from the local authorities an old fellow was looking 1110 over the garden gate of his cottage, and I said to him: "They tell me you don't want electricity along here." He said, "It's them as come 'ere twice a year who don't want it. We live 'ere, and we want it." I am afraid that sometimes amenity tends to forget the essential purposes for which we have some of these gifts. We cannot do anything at this stage of the Bill, but I am sorry about it.