Lords Sitting of 30 July 1963

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Coventry
The Lord Selsdon—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

PICCADILLY TRAFFIC CONTROL AND PEDESTRIANS
2.35 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government the result of the deliberations between the Ministry of Transport, the Police and the Westminster City Council upon the subject of the safety of pedestrians crossing Piccadilly by the provision of traffic lights which were forecast by the Government in reply to a Question answered on June 17 last; and, as the suggestion made in the Question was accepted in principle by the Ministry of Transport, whether the Government can say when the pedestrians, harassed now by the speed of the one-way traffic, will receive relief by the erection of the suggested traffic signs.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, the Highways Committee of Westminster City Council has recommended to the Council that, among other modifications to the one-way scheme, signal-controlled pedestrian crossings should be provided over Piccadilly, near Sackville Street and near Air Street. The Council will consider this recommendation at their meeting on August 1. If they agree to it, I am sure the Council will proceed as fast as they can with installing these signals, and making the necessary modifications to the signal installation at Piccadilly Circus. My right honourable friend understands that this work is not at
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present expected to be complete before next summer, but he is having urgent consultations with the Council and the suppliers to see what acceleration is possible.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply, which, I must confess, staggers me. This experiment of a one-way street in Piccadilly was started in early spring and had not been going for 24 hours, as the noble Lord is well aware, before it was quite apparent that pedestrians would have to have some safeguard in crossing Piccadilly. We are now told that we cannot expect to have these crossing lights in Piccadilly until the summer of next year. Surely the Ministry of Transport can do something. The Ministry has approved, the noble Lord has told us, and the Council are prepared to give their blessing to this on August 1. May I ask the noble Lord this: Can anything humanly be done to provide two sets of traffic lights before twelve months ahead?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord has slightly over-simplified the question. I think that I should tell him that this involves not just the provision of these individual lights. They have to be linked in timing with the lights at Piccadilly Circus and the other way down Piccadilly, and this includes among other things, the installation of 28 control sets. But I agree with the noble Lord that there is a delay in these matters. I understand that to a certain extent it is due to delay in the provision of equipment, which is why I concluded my original reply by saying that we had had a number of meetings and were keeping the pressure up, to try to speed things up in this respect.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am grateful for the faint hope that the noble Lord has given, but is he really telling the House that we cannot have two pedestrian crossings across Piccadilly until we have reconstituted the whole of the traffic lights of Piccadilly Circus? Surely, the phasing of these can come after the installation? If that cannot be done, would the noble Lord and his right honourable friend the Minister consider having two ordinary, common or garden pedestrian crossings across Piccadilly, at the places he

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has stated, so that pedestrians can cross this most heavily trafficked street in the West End of London?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, as always, I am prepared to consider anything constructive, but this matter has already been considered, and I should have thought that the most promising line was to endeavour to speed up the installations so far as possible.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Of course, my Lords, I could suggest to the noble Lord that Westminster City Council might halt their additional purchase of parking meters in order to extract money from the motorists, and put up some traffic lights to safeguard the safety of pedestrians.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I have no doubt that the Council will read the noble Lord's words in Hansard.

GO-KART RACING AT ABINGDON R.A.F. STATION
3.38 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they consider that the holding of a motor cycle-Go-Kart race meeting at Abingdon R.A.F. Station on Sunday, July 14 is in keeping with the undertakings given in answer to a Question asked in the House on July 9 upon the subject of noise that "there are strict instructions to ensure that the civilian population is affected as little as possible "and" every effort will continue to be made to reduce disturbance to a minimum"; and what action is being taken to prevent a repetition of this nuisance.]
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, the Question and Answer to which the noble Lord refers dealt specifically with noise from aircraft. As regards the present Question, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Air would not feel justified in forbidding the use of R.A.F. Abingdon for R.A.F. recreational purposes, provided that, as
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on this occasion, reasonable precautions are taken to reduce any disturbance to a minimum.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, with great respect, the Question I asked the noble Lord refers not only to this station but also to the undertakings which he gave me that the disturbance of the civil population would be reduced to a minimum. That was the subject of the Question. The noble Lord now says, if I heard him aright—he will correct me if I am wrong—that reasonable precautions were taken to safeguard the amenity of the civilian population. Reasonable precautions were not taken. And reasonable precautions are not taken at any time at this particular air station to safeguard the interests of the population. But may I ask the noble Lord whether he will consult with the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, who has just returned from a visit to Moscow—a very successful visit, where he persuaded the Russian Prime Minister of the danger of nuclear fallout to civilians or to nations as a whole—about taking the necessary steps to see that the noise from training aircraft over this country does not exceed what the noble Viscount's own Committee has said is absolutely intolerable? Will the noble Lord acquaint his noble friend the Leader of the House that there are 64 aerodromes over the country which are now surplus to R.A.F. requirements, as the noble Lord stated in a Written Reply to me the other day? And could the training, and his Go-Kart exercises with it, be at least transferred to one of the 64 aerodromes which are surplus to R.A.F. requirements?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, that is a lot of questions. If the noble Lord will forgive me, I will reply only to those which relate to the original Question he asked me. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Air and I are sorry if the noble Lord was disturbed on that Sunday by the GoKarting. This is always a difficult matter. It is difficult for my right honourable friend to stop a recreational pastime of this kind which is popular in the R.A.F.; and this is a convenient place to do it. I would point out to the noble Lord that many people live all round this area, as he said, and there was only one other complaint.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, may I correct the noble Lord? It did not cause me any disturbance; I was not there. But I do not raise a Question in this House only when it affects me personally; I raise a Question in this House when I think it is a public nuisance and other people are disturbed. No adequate precaution was taken in this case to see that the Sabbath Day, on which we are all, even the civilian population, at least entitled to some peace and quiet, was not disturbed.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I apologise for misleading the House. There was only one complaint.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether "reasonable precautions" would include fitting silencers to the engines of the Go-Karts?
LORD CARRINGTON: No, my Lords; I do not think they did that. But it meant siting the meeting as far as possible from the centres of population.

REPRESENTATIONS REGARDING RAILWAY CLOSURES
2.41 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what reply has been made to the letter sent by the County Councils Association to the Minister of Transport on April 23, 1963, with reference to the Report The Reshaping of British Railways, in which the Association stated they were "gravely concerned about the Board's intention, expressed in the report and apparently supported by the Minister, to carry out proposals for line and station closures and withdrawals of services as quickly as the Statutory procedures permit", and asking the Minister to "give an assurance that he will not give his consent to any closure proposal until he has given due consideration not only to the representations of the appropriate Transport Users Consultative Committee, but to those other issues to which reference is made in this letter"; and what reply has been made to similar representations made by the Rural District
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Councils Association on April 18, the National Association of Parish Councils on May 22, and the All Wales National Conference on May 24.]
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the letters from the County Councils Association and the Rural District Councils Association to which the noble Lord refers were in response to my right honourable friend's invitation to submit comments on the Railways Board's proposals. They did not in general call for reply, other than by the assurances given in the debates at the end of April and the beginning of May. Account has been, and is being, taken of the Associations' comments, together with those of many other bodies, including the National Association of Parish Councils, in the Government's continuing consideration of the Railways' proposals. The noble Lord will no doubt have observed the Answer given by my right honourable friend to a Question on May 15 in which he stated that local authorities or other responsible bodies are free, once the Railways Board have given formal notice, to make representations about aspects of a closure proposal other than hardship. He added that he would himself consult them if he felt they could help over some aspect of a proposal before him. A reply on certain detailed points raised by the County Councils Association will be sent shortly.
Following the Third National Conference on May 24, the All Wales Committee and the Welsh Parliamentary Party asked the Prime Minister to receive a deputation to present in person the views expressed in resolutions passed by the Conference. The Prime Minister, together with my right honourable friends the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Housing and Local Government, will be seeing this deputation later this week.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for what was, at least in part—the latter part—a very helpful and hopeful reply, may I remind him that the letter from the National Association of Parish Councils and from the All Wales Committee came after the Minister's assurance to which he referred? Can I also ask him whether he is aware, as the Question makes clear, that the County Councils Association, a most important body, specifically asked the Minister for an assurance on the

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points to which he has referred. The absence of a reply over a period of three months has added to their anxiety in this matter, particularly in view of the Press reports of a speedy axe campaign of railway closures. Will the noble Lord pay particular regard to that, and inform his right honourable friend that these bodies hope for and expect a reply from him?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I should have thought, particularly in view of what the noble Lord says, that these letters came after the assurances had been given that I need go no further, because the assurances have been given many times in this House and elsewhere. The answer is then awaited after the original answer has been given. But I do not know quite whether I go all the way with the noble Lord in his claim that a letter in response to an invitation for comment requires further specific comment when the answer has already been given. It may be helpful to the noble Lord to know that, on this subject, with particular reference to the County Councils Association that he mentioned, I myself wrote to my noble friend Lord Gage very fully and he, with my full accord, passed the letter on to the County Councils Association. I have the letter here, and I can tell the noble Lord its date, which was May 7. So, with other correspondence in reply to that, I do not think the County Councils Association can have been under any misapprehension in the matter.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, with all respect, the County Councils Association, one of the most important local authority associations in this country, sent a letter to the Secretary of the Ministry of Transport; and however important the noble Lord's letter to his noble friend is, it cannot take the place of a reply from the Secretary to the Ministry, from the Minister himself. I would submit to the noble Lord that this is an extremely well-reasoned and vitally important letter to which it is necessary that the Minister of Transport should give a considered reply, which, subject to his approval and that of the County Councils Association, should then be published for the information of the whole country. I hope the noble Lord will make representations to that effect to his right honourable friend.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies may I say that the letter from the Parish Councils Association was not written at the invitation of my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport, and was not one of the letters to which my noble friend Lord Chesham said that any answer had been given. To the best of my knowledge, no answer has been given. Would my noble friend see whether some answer could be written before the Summer Recess?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I had not anticipated replying to the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, because I was unaware of what question he had asked. There was a question at the end of my noble friend's supplementary, and I had thought that in the acknowledgements of these letters—or so I am informed—the writers were told that the views expressed would be taken into account by the Government in the consideration they were giving to these proposals.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I do not want to press this particular matter, but I wonder whether the House would permit me to say that the Minister has a very difficult task in this House. Although he does not always satisfy us, he has great patience and courtesy, and while I hope he will be able to do something further for my noble friend we are grateful to him for both those things.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I can only say that I am grateful to the noble Earl for what he has said.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I would support my noble Leader in thanking the noble Lord for his patience and courtesy. But this is a matter of national importance. It is an Association of very important local authorities which has written to his right honourable friend. I am asking only that they should receive a considered reply.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: My Lords, I should like to inform your Lordships that at a suitable moment after half past three my noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty will be making a statement on the naval programme.

PROTECTION OF DEPOSITORS (ACCOUNTS) REGULATIONS, 1963
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD DERWENT): My Lords, these Regulations, if your Lordships approve them, will determine the content of the accounts which companies that advertise for deposits from the public will prepare for the Registrar of Companies, the Board of Trade and the companies' depositors and prospective depositors. The accounts are required so that all concerned shall have ready access to material which will enable them to assess the state of a company's financial affairs and, if they are prospective or present depositors, to decide whether the company is one with which they can in their judgment safely entrust or continue to entrust their money. If the accounts are to serve this purpose they must be up to date and they must be informative. The Act itself ensures that the accounts will be up to date by providing that in general they shall be published within three months of the end of the period to which they relate, and by providing that the annual audited accounts shall be supported by interim accounts covering a period of six months. These regulations which are now before your Lordships seek to ensure that the accounts will be informative.
The Companies Act sets out, in some ten sections and in the Eighth Schedule the information which directors are required to include in the accounts they lay before their companies in general meeting. Nearly the whole of this information is as relevant to the interests of the depositors with a company as it is to the company's members. The Regulations therefore begin by applying to the accounts required under the Protection of Depositors Act virtually the whole of the accounting provisions of the Companies Act. I shall deal only with a few of the details, but if any noble Lord has any questions I shall try to answer them afterwards.
The provisions are applied with certain modifications and exceptions. They do little more than is made necessary by the essential differences between the accounts required by the two Acts. Where the Companies Act refers to a financial year the Regulations refer to the period to which the accounts relate; where the
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Companies Act requires accounts for one year to give for purposes of comparison figures for the previous year the Regulations, as they apply to interim accounts covering six months as well as to annual accounts, permit the figures given for comparison in interim accounts to be either those from the last annual accounts or those from the last interim accounts.
I now come to the most important part of these Regulations. The fact that they apply to a particular class of companies—those that seek deposits—makes it both possible and desirable to provide for the accounts to contain information additional to that required by the Companies Act. This is effected by Regulations 2 and 3 and Schedule 2. The first requirement in Part I of the Schedule is that a company should give information about the amount of money deposited with it at the balance sheet date, the periods after which the deposits become repayable, and the amount payable as interest to depositors in the period to which the accounts relate.
The second requirement is for information about those of a company's assets which derive from what in these Regulations are called instalment credit agreements. That is, hire-purchase agreements, credit sale agreements, and loans repayable in instalments at intervals not exceeding three months. A company is required to state the amount receivable at the balance sheet date under instalment credit agreements it has entered into or has had assigned to it. In order that the amount so stated should give as accurate an indication as possible of the company's position, it is to be stated after provision has been made for bad and doubtful debts; and for the same reason the company must show what part of it, if any, is revenue which at the balance sheet date had not then been earned.
Regulation 3 and Part 2 of Schedule 2 apply only to companies a substantial part of whose activities consists of dealing in property. Regulation 5 provides for certain statements from directors. The first two of these statements about the main activities of the company during the period covered by the accounts, are relevant to Section 12 of the Act which places on a company obligations towards its depositors if,

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after describing one activity in its advertisements for deposits, it thereafter carries on some other activity. The third statement, about the value at which the current assets shown in the balance sheet could be realised in the ordinary course of business, is a stricter version of a similar provision in the Companies Act. Finally, I would mention Regulation 6 and Schedule 3 which require from the auditors a report on much the same lines as one made under the Companies Act. I beg to move that these Regulations be approved.
Moved, That the Protection of Depositors (Accounts) Regulations, 1963, be approved.—(Lord Derwent.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL
Read 2a (according to Order): Committee negatived.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of July 23), Bill read 3a, and passed.

OFFICES, SHOPS AND RAILWAY PREMISES BILL
2.59 p.m.
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments to one of the Lords Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments to one of the Lords Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Carrington.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS TO ONE OF THE LORDS AMENDMENTS
[NOTE.—The reference is to Bill (46) as first printed for the Lords]

LORDS AMENDMENT
After Clause 57, insert the following new clause—
Protection for local authorities' inspectors
(".—(1) An inspector appointed under section 52(1) or (5) of this Act shall not be personally liable in respect of any act done by him in the execution or purported execution of this Act and within the scope of his employment, if he did that act in the honest belief that his duty under this Act required or entitled him to do it:
Provided that nothing in this subsection shall be construed as relieving an authority by whom an inspector is so appointed from any liability in respect of acts of their officers.
(2) Where an action has been brought against such an inspector in respect of an act done by him in the execution or purported execution of this Act and the circumstances are such that he is not legally entitled to require the authority by whom he was appointed to indemnify him, the authority may, nevertheless, indemnify him against the whole or part of any damages and costs or expenses which he may have been ordered to pay or may have incurred, if they are satisfied that he honestly believed that the act complained of had been within the scope of his employment and that his duty under this Act required or entitled him to do it.")
The Commons agreed to the above Amendment, but proposed the following Amendments thereto:—
Line 1, leave out subsection (1).
Line 10, leave out ("such an inspector") and insert ("an inspector appointed under section 52(1) or (5) of this Act")
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree to the Commons Amendments to one of the Lords' Amendments. Your Lordships may recall that at the Report stage of this Bill the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, moved the insertion of a new clause concerning protection for local authorities' inspectors. I accepted his Amendment on behalf of the Government. The new clause as set out on the Order Paper contains two subsections. Subsection (1) provides that a local authority inspector shall not be personally liable for an act done by him in the execution or purported execution of the Bill and within the scope of his employment if he honestly believed he was required or entitled to do it under the Bill. Subsection (2) authorises a local authority to indemnify an inspector who may have been sued for damages in respect of an act by him which he honestly believed to be in the execution of the Act but which was, in fact, outside the scope of his employment.
The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, mentioned that he based his Amendment on an almost identical provision of the Shops Bill, 1957; and there are, in fact, other precedents in the Food and Drugs Act, 1955, and in public health legislation. When our Amendments were discussed in another place last week it was argued by one of the friends of the noble Lord in another place that the principle of equality before the law made it desirable

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that all public officials, whether local authority inspectors or otherwise, should not be relieved of any personal liability for tortious acts. The view was expressed that, despite the precedents, this principle should not be infringed even where an inspector acts within the scope of his employment and in good faith. An Amendment was therefore moved to leave out subsection (1) of the new clause. My right honourable friend the Minister of Labour, in the light of further legal advice he received on this point, decided to recommend acceptance of this Amendment. No change was proposed in the content of subsection (2) of the clause other than the Amendment in line 10, which is consequential on the deletion of subsection (1).
I am sure that the House will recognise the importance of preventing any further erosion of the principle of equality before the law. In practice, if a local inspector commits a tortious act within the scope of his employment the employing authority is equally liable and no doubt will stand behind him if he is sued for damages. I think I owe the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, an apology for having to change my mind on his Amendment—for having accepted it and now having to ask the House to take a contrary view. But, for the reasons I have given, I recommend to your Lordships that the Amendments made in another place to the new clause should be accepted. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons Amendments to one of the Lords Amendments.—(Lord Carrington.)
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I rise just to say that I have had consultations with my honourable friends in another place and also with the Attorney General and, following those discussions, I am happy to recommend to the House that these Amendments be accepted. The purpose of moving the original new clause was to give protection to the inspectors who would be called upon to perform an onerous and, in some cases, difficult task. It was when looking through previous legislation that I came across this particular clause. I thought that it was admirable and that it met many of the fears that have been expressed to me. For that reason I placed
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the Amendment before the House on Report stage.
Subsection (2), to which I—and, I think, the House—attach very considerable importance remains. But in regard to subsection (1) we have a clash of opinion. My honourable friends and the Government now take the view that it is wrong for an official—or, for that matter, any person, whether he be Prime Minister, Archbishop or the sanitary inspector—to be above the law: that all should be equal in the law. That is not the case, however, so far as the Food and Drugs Act, 1955, is concerned, where these very words are included. Therefore, though the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, says he feels that he owes me an apology, I would say that he does not, because when he and his Ministry made that decision they had firm precedents on which to base their judgment. It is now argued that these words are bad law; and I think I agree. But it would be interesting to know what the Government propose to do about all the other legislation which is on the Statute Book but is now accepted by the Government as bad law; whether it is their intention, now or at an early date, to make the necessary Amendments to make the bad law good law. With those words, I support the Amendments.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD DILHORNE): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, spoke about people being equal "in the law"; I have more usually heard it referred to as being equal "before the law". It is true that, as a general proposition, that is correct; but there are, on occasions, exceptions to it. For instance, I would remind the noble Lord of diplomatic immunity and matters of that sort. I am not familiar with the reasons why this special provision was put into the earlier Act. There may have been good reasons for it; but I think that in every case where it is proposed to depart from the general rule a very strong case requires to be made out. I am sorry that the noble Lord should have got into a little argument with a friend in another place about whether that case was made out in this particular instance. Personally, I do not think it was; but I do think (and I hope I have the noble Lord with me in this) that before we give any special protection in the law to any individual, whoever he may be, a special case requires to be

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made out. Having said that, I could not at this moment go so far as to agree with the noble Lord in saying that no special case was made out in relation to the earlier legislation.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

WATER RESOURCES BILL [H.L.]
3.8 p.m.
Order of the Day for the consideration of the Commons Amendments read.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (LORD HASTINGS): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Hastings.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I think it would be to your Lordships' convenience if I put the Amendments in blocks.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[The references are to Bill [78] as first printed for the House of Commons.]
Clause 1, page 2, line 22, after ("Food") insert ("and, in the case of anything falling to be done by the Ministers, means those Ministers")
Clause 2, page 2, line 43, leave out from ("subsection") to end of line 4 on page 3 and insert ("an inland water which either—

(a) is a lake, pond or reservoir which does not discharge to any other inland water, or

(b) is one of a group of two or more lakes, ponds or reservoirs (whether near to or distant from each other) and of watercourses or mains connecting them, where none of the inland waters in the group discharges to any inland water outside the group")

page 3, line 6, leave out from ("Act") to end of line 8.
Clause 3, page 3, line 18, after ("and") insert ("subject to the following provisions of this section")
Clause 3, page 3, line 24, leave out ("under") and insert ("by virtue of this section or of section 10 of")
Clause 3, page 3, line 48, at end insert ("for the purposes of the functions of river boards relating to land drainage.
(7) The provisions of Schedule (Seaward boundaries of river authority areas) to this Act shall have effect for the purposes of this section")
Clause 6, page 4, line 44, at end insert ("generally or as being qualified in respect of
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the protection of land against erosion or encroachment by the sea or any other particular aspects of land drainage")
Clause 6, page 5, line 12, leave out("relating to that subject") and insert ("which relate to that subject as it affects the area of the river authority")
Clause 7, page 6, line 39, at end insert ("and where two or more local authority members are to be appointed by the council of a county, the council (subject to the last preceding subsection) shall, so far as may be practicable, select persons each of whom has local associations with a different county district or group of county districts, having regard to the appropriate penny rate product for the relevant area of each county district council for the relevant year")
Clause 8, page 7, line 21, after ("member") insert ("or members")
Leave out lines 23 and 24.
Clause 9, page 8, line 5, leave out from ("as") to end of line 7 and insert ("apart from this subsection, those waters and parts of the sea would not be included in the river authority area for the purposes of the enactments relating to fisheries")
Clause 9, page 8, line 19, leave out from ("as") to end of line 21 and insert ("apart from subsection, those waters and parts of the sea would not be included in the river authority area for the purposes of the enactments relating to river pollution")
Clause 9, page 8, line 30, at end insert—
("(5) Nothing in this section shall affect the construction of any reference in this Act to a river authority area, other than any such reference in this section or in Schedule 2 to this Act.")
Clause 11, page 9, line 35, leave out ("waiters") and insert ("watercourses")
Clause 11, page 9, line 40, leave out subsections (3) to (5) and insert—
("(3) Where any of the following events occurs, that is to say—

(a) by an order under the last preceding section a river authority is established for a new area designated in the order, or

(b) by an order under that section the area of a river authority is altered so as to affect any of the particulars shown on a main river map, or

(c) a scheme under section 3 of the Land Drainage Act 1961 is confirmed by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food,

that Minister shall take action in accordance with the following provisions of this section.
(4) Subject to the next following subsection, the action to be taken by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in the circumstances mentioned in the last preceding subsection shall be such action, either—

(a) by requiring a river authority to send to him a main river map kept by the authority, and altering the map and sending it back to the river authority, or

(b) by preparing a new map and sending it to a river authority, and, where a main

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river map is already kept by that authority, directing that the new map is to be in substitution for that map,

as that Minister may consider appropriate for securing that, in each river authority area, there will be kept by the river authority a main river map—

(i) showing by a distinctive colour the extent to which any watercourse in the area is to be treated as the main river, or part of the main river, for the purposes of Part II of the Land Drainage Act 1930, and

(ii) indicating (by a distinctive colour or otherwise) which (if any) of those watercourses are watercourses designated in a scheme made under section 3 of the Land Drainage Act 1961.

(5) Before altering a map, or preparing a new map, under the last preceding subsection, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food shall give notice of his intention to do so in such manner as he thinks best adapted for informing persons affected, and shall consider any objections made to him within the time and in the manner specified in that notice, and may then alter or prepare the map, whether in accordance with the proposals contained in the notice or otherwise:
Provided that this subsection shall not apply to the variation of a main river map (whether by way of altering the map or preparing a new map in substitution for it) where the variation is limited to that required in consequence of the confirmation of a scheme under section 3 of the Land Drainage Act 1961.")
Clause 11, page 10, line 26, leave out from ("of") to end of line 27 and insert ("the main river map kept by the authority")
Clause 11, page 10, line 30, leave out paragraph (a) and insert—
("(a) if he intends to vary the map, whether in accordance with the proposals contained in the application or otherwise, shall give notice of his intention to do so in such manner as he thinks best adapted for informing persons affected, and shall consider any objections made to him within the time and in the manner specified in that notice, and may then vary the map, whether in accordance with the proposals contained in the notice or otherwise.")
Clause 11, page 10, line 41, leave out ("last preceding subsection") and insert (preceding provisions of this section")
Clause 11, page 11, line 9, leave out from beginning to ("be") in line 10 and insert ("(b) if it is a main river may, shall")
Clause 11, page 11, line 19, at end insert—
("(10) In this section 'main river map' means a map sent to a river authority under this section, otherwise than under subsection (1) thereof, in the form in which that map is for the time being in force.")
Clause 12, page 12, line 22, at end insert—
("(f) to bring to the notice of the river authority concerned any case where it appears to the Board that, for the purpose of securing the proper use of water resources in a river authority area, the
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quality of the water contained in an inland water in that area needs to be improved, and that the requisite improvement could be obtained through the exercise of powers conferred by the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Acts 1951 to 1961.")
Clause 11, page 11, line 40, at end insert—
("(5) In the performance of their functions under this section, it shall be the duty of the Board to keep themselves informed as to the requirements, in respect of the supply of water, of such classes of users of water as are likely to make major demands on the water water resources of river authority areas.")
Clause 11, page 11, line 41, leave out ("(4)") and insert ("(5)")
Clause 14, page 14, line 35, leave out from ("shall") to ("revise") in line 36 and insert ("in accordance with the next following subsection, from time to time")
Clause 14, page 14, line 42, at end insert—
("(3) A river authority shall carry out revisions in pursuance of the last preceding subsection at intervals of not more than seven years, and, subject to that requirement, at such times as they consider appropriate, having particular regard to the times at which like revisions are proposed to be carried out by other river authorities.")
Clause 14, page 15, line 6, leave out ("Minister") and insert ("Ministers")
Clause 14, page 15, line 6, leave out ("and")
Clause 14, page 15, line 7, after ("Board") insert ("and to the council of every county or county borough any part of which is comprised in the river authority area")
Clause 15, page 16, line 13, at end insert—
("Provided that the Board shall not approve a scheme with modifications except after consultation with the river authority concerned.")
Clause 15, page 16, line 24, after second ("Board") insert ("after consultation with the river authority concerned")
Clause 17, page 17, line 26, after ("apply") insert ("to any gauge installed for the sole purpose of indicating the level of an inland water for the benefit of persons who fish in it, or")
Clause 18, page 17, line 41, leave out ("with the consent of") and insert ("after consultation with")
Clause 19, page 19, line 16, leave out ("and") and insert—
("(e) any navigation authority, harbour authority or conservancy authority having functions in relation to any other inland water, where it appears to the river authority that changes in the flow of the inland water in question may affect the flow of that other inland water, or, if that other inland water is a tidal water and there is no such navigation authority, harbour authority or conservancy authority, the Minister of Transport; and")
Clause 19, page 19, line 28 leave out ("fishing")
Clause 19, page 19, line 28 leave out ("navigation")
Clause 19, page 19, line 30, after ("drainage") insert ("navigation and fisheries")
Clause 21, page 20, line 31, after first ("Board") insert ("and the river authority by whom the statement was submitted")
Clause 21, page 20, line 43, leave out from ("time") to ("any") in line 2 on page 21 and insert ("himself prepare proposals for amending")
Clause 21, page 21, line 6, at end insert—
("Provided that, before preparing proposals under this subsection with respect to any inland water, the Minister, except where he is acting on the application of the river authority in whose area the inland water is situated, shall consult that river authority and the Water Resources Board.")
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I am afraid the number of Amendments which have come to us from another place are too many and varied for me to deal with all at the same time, and I think it is agreeable to the House, so far as I have been able to ascertain, that we should deal with them in this way. Amendments Nos. 1 to 40 concern Parts I, II and II of the Bill and, without wasting your Lordships' time, I would just pinpoint one or two of the more interesting Amendments. For instance, Nos. 4, 5 and 6 with Nos. 12, 13 and 14 refer to a new Schedule after Schedule 1, which is Amendment 205, and these deal with the seaward boundaries of river authority areas. These boundaries have never before been fully defined for land drainage purposes under the River Boards Act, but it is now necessary because of the possibility of there being abstractions of water and the necessity of charging for those abstractions. Then, there is Amendment No. 9 which lays down that local authority members should be selected so far as possible so as to represent different districts according to rateable value. That will not be a hard and fast rule, but it will follow the way it is now in the River Boards Act, 1948.
Amendments Nos. 10 and 11 allow for the appointment of more than one member, if necessary, to represent navigational interests. At the moment, it is limited to only one. Amendment No. 22, which is an important Amendment and I think will particularly interest your Lordships, adds a specified duty to those already put upon the Water Resources Board, and this duty is that of concerning themselves with the prevention of pollution policy which is being followed
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by the river authorities. That is an addition to the Amendment we moved about the proper use of water, in that it is more specific. Amendments Nos. 23 and 24 also put a duty on the Board to keep in close touch with the major water interests and their demands.
To turn to Part III of the Bill, your Lordships will see that Amendment 32 fulfils an undertaking I gave to my noble friend Lord Cawley about fishermen's gauges, and now it will not be necessary for fishermen to give prior notice to river authorities before installing gauges for the purpose of measuring the depth of the stream. Nos. 34 to 37 extend the necessity for consultation by the river authorities before fixing minimum acceptable flows to include navigation, harbour and conservancy authorities whose interest in one inland water may be affected by the flow in another—in other words, to which the statement relates—so that there can be no possibility of other interests being overlooked. I think those are the only matters of interest in the first Parts, and I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Hastings.)
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, we are most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, for the outline he has given of this first group of Amendments, and from this side of the House we welcome them. We welcome particularly Amendments 22 and 24 which, in fact, meet a point which we put to the noble Lord during the Committee stage. Now the Water Resources Board has an interest in the quality of water, and this we think is a very big improvement so far as the Bill is concerned.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 23, page 22, line 1, after ("area") insert ("or cause or permit any other person so to abstract any water").
Clause 23, page 22, line 7, after ("begin") insert ("or cause or permit any other person to begin").
Clause 23, page 22, line 15, leave out from ("unless") to end of line and insert ("the abstraction of").
Clause 23, page 22, line 17, after ("be") insert ("is authorised by a licence under this Act")
Clause 24, page 23, line 21 at end insert ("and where in the course of any such operations as are mentioned in paragraph (b) of this

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subsection water is abstracted from an excavation to which section 2(2)(b) of this Act applies and the abstraction is necessary as mentioned in paragraph (b) of this subsection, the exemption conferred by this subsection shall apply notwithstanding that the water is used for the purposes of the operations").
Clause 24, page 23,line 34, at end insert—
("(7) The restriction imposed by subsection (1) of the last preceding section does not apply to any abstraction by machinery or apparatus installed on a vessel, where the water is abstracted for use on that, or any other, vessel.")
Clause 25, page 24, line 5, leave out subsection (1) and insert—

("(1) Any of the relevant authorities, after consultation with the other relevant authorities (if any), may apply to the Minister for an order excepting any one or more sources of supply in a river authority area from the restriction imposed by section 23(1) of this Act, on the grounds that the restriction so imposed is not needed in relation to that source of supply or those sources of supply, as the case may be.

(2) An application under this section may be made in respect of—

(a) any one or more inland waters specified in the application, or any class of inland waters so specified, or

(b) any underground strata described in the application, whether by reference to their formation or their location in relation to the surface of the land or in relation to other strata subjacent to that surface or partly in one way and partly in another,

and an order may be made under this section accordingly:
Provided that any one order under this section shall be limited to one river authority area and shall not extend to any source of supply outside that area.")
Clause 25, page 24, line 15, leave out ("inland waters") and insert ("sources of supply").
Clause 25, page 24, line 15,leave out line 31.
Clause 25, page 24, line 32, leave out from ("to") to end of line 33 and insert ("an inland water to which the draft statement relates were a reference to a source of supply to which the draft order relates, and
(c) paragraph 4(g) of that Schedule were omitted.
(5) In relation to any application under this section made by a relevant authority other than a river authority, the provisions of Schedule 6 to this Act applied by the last preceding subsection shall have effect subject to the following further modifications, that is to say:—

(a) except in paragraphs 9 and 16 of that Schedule, any reference to the river authority, unless the reference is to the river authority area, shall be construed as a reference to the applicant authority;

(b) in paragraph 9 of that Schedule, the first reference to the river authority shall be construed as a reference to the applicant
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authority, and the second such reference shall be construed as a reference to the river authority and the applicant authority;

(c) the river authority shall be included among the bodies on whom, under paragraph 4 of that Schedule, a copy of the notice is required to be served.

(6) If, in the case of a source of supply in a river authority area,—

(a) it appears to the Minister, after consultation with the river authority and the Water Resources Board, that the question whether the restriction imposed by section 23(1) of this Act is needed in relation to that source of supply ought to be determined, but

(b) no application for an order under this section has been made,

the Minister may direct the river authority to submit to him a draft order under this section with respect to that source of supply.
(7) Part I, and, where applicable, Part IV, of Schedule 6 to this Act shall have effect in relation to any draft order submitted to the Minister in pursuance of the last preceding subsection, subject to the modifications specified in subsection (4) of this section and to the further modification that paragraph 8 of that Schedule shall apply in relation to any objection received by the Minister from the river authority as it applies in relation to an objection received by him from a person on whom a notice is required by that Schedule to be served.")
Clause 25, page 24, line 36, leave out from ("by") to third ("to") in line 37 and insert ("subsection (1) of section 23 of this Act (and, in the case of any underground strata, the restriction imposed by subsection (2) of that section) shall cease to apply to any source of supply").
Clause 25, page 24, line 41, leave out ("inland water") and insert ("source of supply")
Clause 28, page 26, line 5, after ("published") insert ("in the London Gazette and").
Clause 28, page 26, line 6, at end insert ("(other than the London Gazette)").
Clause 28, page 26, line 10, after ("published") insert ("(otherwise than in the London Gazette)").
Clause 28, page 26, line 24, leave out from ("during") to ("and in line 25 and insert ("a period specified in the notice in accordance with the next following subsection").
Clause 28, page 26, line 29, leave out subsection (3) and insert—
("(3) The period specified in a notice in pursuance of the last preceding subsection shall be a period beginning not earlier than the date on which the notice is first published in a newspaper other than the London Gazette, and ending not less than twenty-eight days from that date and not less than twenty-five days from the date on which the notice is published in the London Gazette; and a river authority shall not determine any such application as is mentioned in subsection (1) of this section before the end of the period so specified.")
Clause 29, page 27, line 18, leave out from second ("the") to end of line 21 and insert ("considerations by reference to which, in accordance with section 19(5) of this Act, a minimum acceptable flow for that inland water would fall to be determined").
Clause 29, page 27, line 32, after ("strata") insert ("(a)").
Clause 29, page 27, line 35, at end insert ("and
(b) if it appears to them that the proposed abstraction is likely to affect the flow, level or volume of an inland water (not being an inland water falling within section 2(3) of this Act or an inland water comprised in an order under section 25 of this Act), subsection (5) or subsection (6) of this section, as the case may be, shall apply (without prejudice to the preceding provisions or to paragraph (a) of this subsection) as if the application related to abstraction from that inland water.")
Clause 30, page 28, line 3, at end insert ("from the source of supply to which the licence relates").
Clause 30, page 28, line 8, leave out from ("for") to first ("the") in line 10 and insert ("determining, by measurement or assessment, what quantity of water is to be taken to have been abstracted during any such period by").
Clause 30, page 28, line 8, leave out lines 16 to 18.
Clause 30, page 28, line 19, after ("to") insert ("a river authority, or to").
Clause 30, page 28, line 23, leave out from first ("used") to end of line 26.
Clause 30, page 28, line 39, leave out ("(a)").
Clause 30, page 28, line 40, leave out ("shall") and insert ("may").
Clause 30, page 28, line 42, at end insert—
("(7) Nothing in the last preceding subsection shall be construed as preventing two or more licences from being granted to the same person to be held concurrently in respect of the same source of supply, if the licences authorise the abstraction of water at different points or by different means.")
Clause 31, page 28, line 44, leave out from beginning to end of line 10 on page 29 and insert ("in any action brought against a person in respect of the abstraction of water from a source of supply, it shall be a defence for him to prove that the water was abstracted in pursuance of a licence under this Act, and that the provisions of the licence were complied with").
Clause 31, page 29, line 20, at end insert—
("(5) Where, in accordance with the provisions contained in a licence in pursuance of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of the last preceding section, or in pursuance of that paragraph as modified by subsection (6) of that section, it has been determined what quantity of water is to be taken—

(a) to have been abstracted during any period from a source of supply by the holder of the licence, or

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(b) to have been so abstracted at a particular point or by particular means, or for use for particular purposes,

that determination shall, for the purposes of any proceedings under this Act, be conclusive evidence of the matters to which it relates.")
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, in this group I would draw attention to Amendments 59 and 60. In granting a licence to abstract water from underground strata the river authority must have regard not only to requirements of existing lawful uses of water from those strata, as they do under the Bill now, but also—and this is the new part—to the possible effects on any other inland water a withdrawal from the underground strata may have. Amendment 69 I must refer to now, being in this Part, although it really goes with Nos. 84, 119 and 120. This is an important matter which relates to the defences against actions which may be taken by other parties against licence holders, and it was a matter which exercised my noble friend Lord Amherst of Hackney very considerably during both Committee and Report stages. The result of these Amendments is that the burden is shifted from the complainant to the abstracter. It was agreed, I think, that it would be very difficult for the complainant to get proof that an abstracter was not sticking to the terms of his licence. It meant access to his gauges and all that sort of paraphernalia. Now the abstracter will have to prove that he is abstracting strictly according to the terms of his licence.
There is another important aspect, and that is that licences of right which refer to non-statutory abstracters will afford under Clause 31(1) no defence before the end of the transitional period—and the transitional period as laid down in the clause is to be from the second appointed day to the time when a charging scheme comes into force, and that will be as long as four years probably. During that period a mere licence of right for non-statutory abstraction will not be a defence if by any chance he is spoiling water for his neighbour downstream, and is resting his case for abstracting over a five-year period. Therefore, we feel it is a very considerable improvement in the Bill for the ordinary Common Law rights of people. Those are the only things I wish to mention up to No. 70. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Hastings.)
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, I have a note I received late last night from the River Boards Association, in which they express thanks for the co-operation and kindness of the Minister in attending to all the amendments they felt it right to put forward, and most of them have taken place to our satisfaction. But there is one thing which I am asked to mention. Clause 48 concerns the right of action against a river authority. These are the words that are in my short brief. The Association, however, regret in regard to Amendment 109 that the Government have not seen fit to accept their other Amendment to this clause which would have mitigated the onerous liability placed on river authorities by the clause. As the clause now stands, river authorities may have to pay out large sums of money to satisfy claims based on derogation of protected rights.
There is no time to elaborate that further, but I have to put it on record so that the Government should take notice for the future, in case there are opportunities in the future of bringing in something amended. Therefore, I would merely say again that the River Boards Association, after their numerous meetings with the Ministers and their colleagues in this House, are extremely grateful for the attention that has been given to the remarks they have put forward, but they would like Clause 48 to be observed in its implications as it could possibly affect the river authorities.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
Clause 32, page 29, line 21, leave out subsections (1) to (6) and insert—
("(1) Where the holder of a licence under this Act to abstract water (in this section referred to as the original holder') is the occupier of the whole of the land specified in the licence as the land on which water abstracted in pursuance of the licence is to be used (in this section referred to as 'the relevant land'), and either, being an individual, he dies, or by reason of any other act or event the original holder, whether an individual or not, ceases to be the occupier of the whole of the relevant land and does not continue to be the occupier of any part of that land, and (either immediately after his death or the occurrence of that other act or event or subsequently) another person (in this section referred to as 'the successor') becomes the occupier of the whole of the relevant land,—
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(a) the original holder (except where, being an individual, he has died) shall cease to be the holder of the licence, and

(b) the successor shall become the holder of the licence.

(2) Where the preceding subsection applies, the successor shall cease to be the holder of the licence at the end of the period of one month beginning with the date on which he became the occupier of the relevant land unless before the end of that period he has given to the river authority notice of the change in the occupation of the relevant land.
(3) Provision may be made by regulations under this Act for conferring on a person who, after the death of the original holder or the occurrence of any other act or event whereby the original holder ceases to be the occupier of the relevant land or of part of that land, becomes the occupier of part of the relevant land, a right in such circumstances as may be specified in the regulations—

(a) to become the holder of the licence, subject to provisions corresponding to the last preceding subsection, or

(b) to apply for, and to the grant of, a new licence containing provisions (as to quantities of water and otherwise) determined in accordance with the regulations by reference to the provisions of the original licence,

or for conferring on the original holder, where he continues to be the occupier of part of the relevant land but ceases to be the occupier of another part of that land, a right, in such circumstances as may be specified in the regulations, to apply for, and to the grant of, a new licence as mentioned in paragraph (b) of this subsection.
(4) Any regulations made in pursuance of the last preceding subsection may provide that, in relation to an application for a licence made by virtue of the regulations, or to a person entitled to make such an application, the provisions of this Part of this Act shall have effect subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be specified in the regulations.")
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, we are taking this Amendment separately because the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, has put down an Amendment to it. I will introduce it only very briefly and then let him say what he has to say. Clause 32 deals with succession of licences, which is a highly complicated question, and the Government made no secret at any time that they were not entirely happy about the clause, either when it was introduced to this House or when it left this House. The Commons Amendments deal with the weaknesses in the clause as it was, and, subject to one point which is in fact precisely the point which the noble Lord wishes to bring up, it gave rise to no comment in the other

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place when these Amendments were introduced at Report stage. I think that, in view of the technicality of this I need not go into it any further, because the Amendment to it is only one particular small point in a particular clause. Perhaps the noble Lord would like to move his Amendment, and I will then reply to that. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Hastings.)
3.19 p.m.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH moved, as an Amendment to the Commons Amendment, in the proposed new subsection (2) to leave out "one month" and insert "six months". The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move my Amendment to the Commons Amendment, No. 71. As the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, has said, Clause 32 deals with succession, that is to say, virtually a transfer of the right of ownership in a licence, and it has given lawyers at any rate a great deal of concern. What now appears before us is virtually a clause which has been completely redrafted in another place, but it is still not intelligible to many of us. Not only myself, but the Council of the Law Society has given it earnest consideration. They have made representations to the Minister about it. Unfortunately, the consultations which they desired have not taken place and we now have to deal with it at a very late stage in the progress of the Bill.
This clause deals with two categories of events. Subsections (3) and (4) deal with the case where the land benefited by the licence ceases to be in one occupation. This is a matter which is to be dealt with by means of regulations. All I need say about that is that I hope that, when the regulations are made, they will not be of the same complexity and obscurity as subsections (1) and (2). It is the first of these two subsections which raises the difficulty. They deal with the case in which there is a change of occupancy of the whole of the land benefited by the licence. Such changes can take place because there is either a sale or letting of the land, and where this is the occasion I think that the provisions are intelligible. Even so, I consider, and so do the Law Society, that the period of one month for
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giving notice is too short. That is the gist of my Amendment.
However, I want to say something about other cases in which a change of occupancy of the whole of the land benefited by the licence may take place: that is, where the holder of the licence dies. Leaving out the inessential words of subsection (1), the provision in this case is:
"where the holder of a licence … is the occupier of the whole of the land … and … he dies … and (either immediately after his death or … subsequently) another person … referred to as 'the successor' becomes the occupier …

"(a) the original holder (except where, … he has died) shall cease to be the holder of the licence, and

"(b) the successor shall become the holder of the licence."

As I said before, notice has to be given within one month. These provisions, paragraphs (a) and (b), appear to be totally self-contradictory. Paragraph (a) appears to me to mean that where a man dies he still continues to be the holder of the licence. It is a little difficult to understand what that is intended to mean. Perhaps it means that his executors or the administrators of his estate will be the holders of the licence. This seems to be a conceivable interpretation because, although Clause 27 provides that application for a licence shall be made only by an occupier, it is nowhere stated in express terms that, when the licence has been granted, only the occupier may own it. However, if paragraph (a) means that the owner's personal representatives continue to be the holder of the licence, then paragraph (b) is meaningless, because do not think it is possible for two different persons to be the holder of a licence at one and the same time.
This matter is obviously fraught with a great deal of difficulty in another way. The licences with which we are concerned here will in many cases relate to the use of water for agricultural purposes, such as spray irrigation. In that case there must presumably be someone in occupation of the land for the purpose of carrying on the farming operations. The business of agriculture has to be carried on from day to day. If a bailiff is employed to manage the farm on behalf of the deceased's estate, will he be the occupier; or will the occupier be the person who employs him? Suppose

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that the deceased's widow continues in the house and manages the farm, is she the occupier? Suppose that he dies intestate. My recollection is that, in that event, the legal ownership of the estate is vested temporarily in the President of the Probate, Divorce and Admiralty Division of the High Court. Would he be the occupier of the land in those circumstances, or would he have the right of ownership in the licence? If the owner dies testate and leaves a will, are his executors the occupiers?
I would here point out that in the normal course of events it is comparatively rare for probate of a will or letters of administration to be granted out of the court within one month of the death. It is possible; but, for reasons which are necessary and are well understood, it is far from being the rule. Another difficulty that arises is this. When probate is granted, the executor's title relates back to the date of the death. Is he presumed to have been in occupation of the property from that date or not? This whole matter bristles with great difficulties. It is just possible that, so far as it relates to succession on death, the provision is completely meaningless. But, even if it is not, I am at any rate clear that a period of one month is quite insufficient to unravel the complexities involved in this matter. Therefore I beg to move that six months be substituted for one month.
Amendment moved—
In the proposed new subsection (2), leave out ("one month") and insert ("six months").—(Lord Douglas of Barloch.)
3.28 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I should like to support my noble friend in this Amendment, and also to associate myself with what he has said about the obscurity and ambiguity of this clause. It is a pity that it comes before us so late. I understand that this matter was before another place on July 18, some days ago, and when the position as to its obscurity was put, in something like the same form, but perhaps not with quite the same clarity as my noble friend has put it, there was a promise that it would be looked at. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, now has the result of looking at it. The Commons Amendment comes to us so late that
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we are faced with the alternatives of allowing this obscurity to continue or accepting the small Amendment of my noble friend, substituting six months for one month, and thereby possibly running the risk of losing the Bill. Nobody wants to lose the Bill, and so we may have to put up with this difficult provision which may in the future give rise to a great deal of litigation and difficulties for people who succeed.
The moral is that if the Government give an undertaking that the matter will be looked at before the Bill comes back to this House, surely they are under an obligation to ensure that that undertaking can be properly complied with. In fact, they have given an undertaking which is useless, because it was never intended that we should be faced either with an amendment of the Bill which would result in losing the Bill, or with their not looking at it properly. As I have done on so many occasions in the past, I can only draw the moral that the Government must handle their business much more efficiently in future, and if they give undertakings they must be satisfied that they are undertakings which can be complied with. I hope that, as some kind of compensation for that, the noble Lord will see his way to accepting this specific Amendment. My noble friend has pointed to the great difficulties that will arise if the time is limited to one month. The successor may be the person entitled to take over the licence. He may be abroad: he may not be immediately available. There may be all sorts of difficulties in the way of his becoming aware of his rights, and one month is a very short period. I should have thought that no harm would result if the period were six months, as my noble friend has submitted in his Amendment.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, I should like to support the Motion. One month is not going to be enough and probably will give difficulties in future, but the circumstances under which we labour at the end of a Session obviously preclude the Government from putting in an Amendment. I support the idea of six months, but lower down in the clause certain regulations are mentioned and I have it in command, sc to speak, from the River Boards Association to say that they would be very grateful

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if they could be allowed to see, and to discuss, regulations as they are being made; that is to say, before they are actually published.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I think I must remind noble Lords that this Amendment is a redrafting of Clause 32 which we had before us during the Committee and Report stages, and therefore, quite clearly, because that previous clause was not deemed to be satisfactory, the new Amendment is supposed to clarify the situation and to be better than the original clause. I fully admit that there were great technical and legal difficulties about drafting it, and, in view of these difficulties, it was considered that it was better to confine the clause to two major things: first, to the case where a licence holder ceases to occupy the whole of the specified land and is succeeded in occupation of the whole of that land by another person who is to become the licence holder; and, for the rest, to take power for the Minister to make regulations providing for succession to licences where there is a change in the number of occupants of the specified land, as it was found virtually impossible to incorporate all the possibilities that might come about into a clause of this nature.
The next thing I wish to draw your Lordships' attention to is the fact that subsection (2), which is the subject of the noble Lord's Amendment, merely reproduces the existing, original subsection (2)(c) which was in Clause 32 when it was before this House on a previous occasion. The period of one month was already part of that clause in similar circumstances. It was not commented on at all at any stage while the Bill was going through your Lordships' House; and it was not commented on until this new clause (as it is in effect) was produced at the Report stage in another place—when, because it was a new clause, it drew attention to itself and this particular point about the one-month period was picked up, which it had not been previously. Therefore, I think that it is reasonable for me to point out that curious aspect of the affair.
These two subsections, (1) and (2), are of a restricted application. They deal with the case where there a change in occupation of land on which water abstracted pursuant to a licence is authorised to be used. In effect, of course, it
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will apply to licences to take water from an inland water for spray irrigation, as the noble Lord said; also to licences authorising abstraction of underground water for agricultural purposes, and to very little else. It will not apply to statutory water undertakers, or to industrialists, companies, and so on. Their licences continue irrespective of changes in their personnel. The subsection is limited in the sort of people to whom it will apply.
Coming to the question of the necessity for giving one month's notice, this is necessary so that a river authority is kept informed of the identity of the licence holder with whom it must deal in enforcing the various provisions of the Bill relating to abstractions; the limits on the quantity authorised to be taken, and the payment of the licence fees and charges; service of notice under Clause 44(2), which refers to restrictions on the quantities authorised to be taken for spray irrigation. Six months' notice in this latter case dealing with spray irrigation would obviously be far too long, and the river authority must be able to deal with the licence holder on whom any notice under that clause must be served. Six months could mean the whole of an abstraction season for spray irrigation. Therefore, that river authority in regard to the minimum acceptable flow for which it is responsible might find itself in very serious trouble.
To turn to one or two side aspects of the noble Lord's Amendment which he has brought into the discussion, I will take the case where an occupier of the land may die. This subsection is not concerned with the legal title to the relevant land, but with de facto occupation, and that is all. If after the former occupier's death the land is occupied at all, it will be clear who is occupying it; and we think that it is not asking too much that he or she should make himself or herself known to the river authority in one month. The noble Lord cited the example of the farmer who died and whose wife was occupying the relevant land and was therefore, in effect and in fact, the successor for the purposes of the new subsection (1). She must give notice to the river authority within one month.
But if the farmer and his wife vacate the land, say by giving up the tenancy, or if for any other reason the land remains unoccupied for three months after which

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some person comes on to it, then that person will be the occupier and must give notice within one month from the date of occupation—and the subsection says this quite clearly. We do not think that is very difficult. All he has to do is to notify the river authority of the change. It is of course necessary therefore that he should be aware of the obligation to give notice, and this can be done and secured by administrative means. The river authorities will be asked to mark the licences in large letters that on any death or change of occupancy the application for a transfer is to be made within the month, and there are various forms of publicity and consultation. I do not think it is going to be very likely that any occupier of land with water rights will not be aware of the law in this respect.
When it comes to making regulations, my right honourable friend has, I think, given an undertaking—and, if he has not, I am authorised to do so now—that there will be full consultation with the Law Society. I now see that he gave this undertaking in another place, so that there will be consultation in respect of regulations with the Law Society. I will bear in mind what my noble friend Lord Albemarle has said about consultations with the River Boards Association and draw it to the attention of my right honourable friend.
In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, my right honourable friend has considered this matter again, and he is quite satisfied in respect of this time factor of one month that it is perfectly feasible and is necessary from the river authorities' point of view. As for the wider legal aspects, I have said that this is an improvement on the previous clause, and that in respect of regulations there will be consultation. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will not press this Amendment, quite apart, of course, from the difficulty we find ourselves in at this very late stage.

AIRCRAFT CARRIER PROGRAMME
3.41 p.m.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I think it might be for the convenience of your Lordships if at this moment I repeated a statement which has been
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made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Defence in another place.
The Government have had the question of aircraft carriers under consideration with a view to determining the requirement for the 1970s. After full consideration it has been decided that the carrier force likely to be required during that period is three carriers. The life of H.M.S. "Eagle" and H.M.S. "Hermes" can, with refits, be extended until about 1980. H.M.S. "Victorious" and H.M.S. "Ark Royal" will come to the end of their useful lives in the early 1970s. A decision has therefore been taken to build one carrier replacement. This ship will be of around 50,000 tons and will give us, with H.M.S. "Eagle" and "Hermes", a force of three carriers. This decision will ensure that the Fleet Air Arm can maintain its rôle at least until 1980.
I have also had under consideration an aircraft replacement for the Sea Vixen. I am now able to announce that the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force have reached agreement on the characteristics of a common aircraft which will replace both the Sea Vixen and the Hunter. This aircraft, which will be capable of operation either from land or from carriers, will greatly increase the flexibility of our use of air power and provide the opportunity for economies in its disposition. The aircraft will be based on the Hawker P.1154, and a detailed study is at this moment proceeding. As soon as this is complete I will take steps to inform your Lordships of the result.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am obliged to the First Lord of the Admiralty for giving us the Minister's statement. I think it is wise to look forward, and it seems that the Minister is looking forward, but I regret to see that this means a cutting of the strength of the aircraft carrier force proper from four to three. It is a long way ahead to take such a decision as that, especially in view of the developments in characteristics of weapons which might mean, in the end, a wider use of the aircraft carrier class. I hope that due attention has been given to that aspect. There is also no indication in this statement of the approximate date of changing from the Sea Vixens and the Hunters to the new aircraft. Can the First Lord give us that information?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, taking the noble Earl's second question first, the Sea Vixen will need to be replaced in the early 1970s, and the Hunter a little earlier. With regard to his first question, there will, of course, be four fleet carriers until the early '70s, and the decision that I have just announced has been taken, as the noble Lord will realise, after a great deal of discussion and balancing of all the factors—strategic, technological and economic. In so far as the decision ensures the future of the Fleet Air Arm until 1980, I think that it is a very satisfactory decision indeed.
EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I hope that this is not a sort of final shutdown upon the number of aircraft carriers of great endurance that we are likely to have in certain circumstances. I hope that the matter will remain open, in view of the changing characteristics of weapons.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, of course everything is always open, and no decision is irrevocable. But the decision taken by the Government now means that it will be possible to deploy two carriers east of Suez most of the time; and that is, I think, a very important decision for the Government to have taken.
LORD REA: My Lords, I should like to add my thanks, to the First Lord of the Admiralty. It seems to me that there will still be about seventeen years in which to make further decisions, if some further modification should be necessary. Of course this is very much a matter for the experts, and it would be impertinent for a layman to butt into such a very important decision, but there is just one point I should like to ask. Can the First Lord give an approximate estimate of the cost of building this one carrier?
LORD CARRINGTON: Yes, my Lords. The cost of the ship itself will be about £60 million.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, arising out of the reply of the First Lord of the Admiralty, I should like to say how delighted I am that the building of a new Fleet carrier is shortly to be commenced. I observe that the main striking force of the Fleet is based on the task force, with the carrier as its centrepiece, and with the new aircraft increasing the strength
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of our present carriers. Would the noble Lord not agree that, in view of the possible closing down of a number of our foreign bases, a movable one becomes of the utmost importance for the defence of this country?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, nobody—not even the noble Lord—is more delighted than I am; and I agree with every word that he has said.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, could my noble friend give some idea of when orders for this new carrier, and the components and so on, will begin to filter through to the engineering and shipbuilding industry?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, orders will begin to build up fairly soon, and the ship will be completed about 1971. They take a very long time to build, as they are very big ships.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, can the First Lord give us—or is it too soon to say—any indication of where she is likely to be built?
LORD CARRINGTON: No, my Lords. But all the shipbuilders who are capable of building aircraft carriers will have an equal chance of tendering for her.

WATER RESOURCES BILL [H.L.]
3.47 p.m.
Consideration of Commons Amendments resumed.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, if I may have your leave to speak again, the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, has not really answered the case which I put up. He has not in fact denied that these provisions are extremely obscure; that it is very difficult to tell what they mean. He has in effect admitted that they really ought to be redrafted completely. I recognise, as my noble friend Lord Silkin does, that that is not possible at this late stage in the Session, but it would still be possible to extend the time limit. The noble Lord, Lord Hastings, has said that this has only a limited application. I do not know how many cases there are in which licences are, or will be, required for agricultural or other purposes. It is all very well to say that it has a limited application, but there may be a very large number of cases, nevertheless.

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The noble Lord also said that these provisions rest upon de facto occupation. That, I think, is correct, but whether he or anybody else can readily define what that means is quite another story. He has said that administrative arrangements will be made in order to obviate the difficulty; and the administrative arrangement that is proposed, as I understand it, is that there will be notification upon the licence that, on a change of occupation application must be made. But if, for example, the owner employs a manager or bailiff to manage his farm, will the bailiff see the licence? If the owner dies abroad, nobody thinks of looking at the licence in order to see the result of what the noble Lord calls the administrative arrangements. This is a highly unsatisfactory state of affairs, and it is probably going to cause a great deal of trouble.
I cannot accept the argument that, if this provision is not included, the river authority will not have means of dealing with exceptional cases in which it is necessary to curtail the extraction of water. I simply do not believe now that that is so. This is a provision which is necessary in order to have a regular and proper means of transferring the licence from one person to another person who is going to be in occupation of a certain piece of land. Surely, it is desirable that that transfer should be made as simple as possible. If the noble Lord is not prepared to agree to six months, could he not at any rate agree to three months?
On Question, Amendment negatived.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 32, page 31, line 14, leave out from ("and") to end of line 17 and insert ("where such a licence is transferred by virtue of any such order, or by virtue of any other statutory provision, or is included in any sale or lease under section 122 of the Public Health Act 1936, the person to whom it is transferred, sold or leased shall become (in the case of such a transfer, to the extent specified in the statutory provision in question, and, in the case of a lease, for the period of the lease) the holder of the licence for the purposes of this Act.
(8) Where any person who becomes the holder of a licence by virtue of the provisions of this section or of regulations made thereunder gives notice to the river authority in accordance with those provisions, or any person who becomes the holder of a licence by virtue of the last preceding subsection
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notifies the river authority that he has become the holder of the licence, the river authority shall vary the licence accordingly; and where, by virtue of the provisions of this section or of any such regulations a person ceases to be the holder of a licence in such circumstances that no other person thereupon becomes the holder of it, the licence shall cease to have effect.")
Clause 33, page 31, line 44, at end insert:
("(4) Where, in a case falling within subsection (1)(c) of this section, there are in force on the second appointed day two or more separate statutory provisions (other than orders under the Water Act 1958) whereby the same person is entitled to abstract water from the same source of supply at different points or by different means, subsections (1) to (3) of this section and the next following section, shall have effect separately in relation to each of those statutory provisions, and the applicant shall be entitled to two or more licences under this section accordingly:
Provided that this subsection shall have effect subject to any regulations made in accordance with the next following subsection.
(5) Provision may be made by regulations under this Act for securing that where, on any application under this section, it appears to the river authority—

(a) that the applicant would, apart from the regulations, be entitled to two or more licences under this section, by reason that he was entitled to abstract water by virtue of two or more separate statutory provisions in force on the second appointed day, whether those statutory provisions relate to different sources of supply or to abstraction from the same source of supply but at different points or by different means, and

(b) that those sources of supply, or those different points or different means, as the case may be, have been, or are intended to be, used by the applicant in conjunction with each other (whether simultaneously or as alternatives or otherwise), and

(c) that it is expedient that (instead of two or more licences) there should be granted to the applicant one licence under this section providing for them to be so used in pursuance of the licence,

the river authority may determine that a licence shall be granted in accordance with paragraph (c) of this subsection; and any such regulations may provide that, in relation to a licence so granted, the provisions of section 30 of this Act and of the next following section shall have effect subject to such exceptions and modifications as may be specified in the regulations.
(6) In this section 'separate statutory provision' does not include a statutory provision which only amends or varies a previous statutory provision; but any reference in this or the next following section to a statutory provision (except where the reference is to the coming into operation thereof) shall, in relation to a statutory provision which has been amended or varied, be construed as a reference to that provision in the form in which it is for the time being in force.")
Clause 34, page 32, leave out lines 26 to 40 and insert ("any quantity specified in the licence as a quantity of water authorised to be abstracted in pursuance of the licence during a period or periods so specified shall, subject to the following provisions of this section, be determined by reference to the requirements of the applicant, as indicated by (and not, except by virtue of the next following subsection, to be taken to exceed) the quantities of water proved to the reasonable satisfaction of the river authority to have been abstracted from the source of supply in question by the applicant or his predecessors from time to time during the relevant period by virtue of the relevant statutory provision.
(4) In determining any quantity to be specified in the licence, in a case falling within the last preceding subsection, the river authority shall have regard to the terms of the relevant statutory provision and to such of the following matters as are proved to their reasonable satisfaction (in addition to the quantities of water proved to have been abstracted as mentioned in the last preceding subsection) that is to say—
(a) the seasons of the year during which the quantities of water abstracted during the relevant period, as mentioned in the last preceding subsection, were so abstracted").
Page 33, line 5, leave out ("the last preceding subsection") and insert ("subsection (3) of this section").
Page 33, line 10, at end insert ("either or both of the following, that is to say").
Page 33, line 14, leave out ("or") and insert ("and").
Leave out Clause 35.
After Clause 35, insert the following new clause:
Licences of right for non-statutory users
("(1) The provisions of this section shall have effect where an application under section 33 of this Act is made in a case falling within subsection (1) (b) of that section; and in this section 'the relevant period' means the period of five years ending with the second appointed day or the period beginning with the date on which the applicant or his predecessors began to abstract water from the source of supply in question and ending with the second appointed day, whichever is the shorter.
(2) Subject to the following provisions of this section, any quantity specified in the licence as a quantity of water authorised to be abstracted in pursuance of the licence during a period of periods so specified shall be determined by reference to the requirements of the applicant, as indicated by (and not, except by virtue of the next following subsection, to be taken to exceed) the quantities of water proved to the reasonable satisfaction of the river authority—

(a) to have been abstracted from the source of supply in question by the applicant or his predecessors from time to time during the relevant period, and

(b) to have been so abstracted for use on the land on which, and for the purposes for
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which, water abstracted in pursuance of the licence is authorised by the licence to be used:

Provided that paragraph (b) of this subsection shall not apply in the case of a licence granted to water undertakers for the purposes of their undertaking as water undertakers.
(3) In determining any quantity to be specified in the licence, the river authority shall have regard to such of the following matters as are proved to their reasonable satisfaction (in addition to the quantities of water proved to have been abstracted as mentioned in the last preceding subsection) that is to say—

(a) the seasons of the year during which the quantities of water abstracted during the relevant period, as mentioned in the last preceding subsection, were so abstracted;

(b) the extent to which the abstraction of water has during the relevant period been, or is intended to be, limited to special occasions when, by reason of accident or other emergency, there has been, or may be, a temporary deficiency of water from other sources of supply;

(c) the extent to which works, machinery or apparatus were reasonably provided by the applicant or his predecessors in anticipation of future requirements.

(4) Any provision made by the licence as to the quantity of water authorised to be abstracted shall be such as will not permit the abstraction of water in excess of the quantity shown to the reasonable satisfaction of the river authority to be capable of being extracted by means of works, machinery or apparatus which were constructed or installed before the second appointed day, or were in the course of being constructed or installed on that day, not being works, machinery or apparatus provided for use only in the event of an accident or other emergency involving a total or partial failure of other works, machinery or apparatus.
(5) Where the purposes specified in the licence as the purposes for which water abstracted in pursuance of the licence is to be used consist of or include spray irrigation, then, unless it is proved to the reasonable satisfaction of the river authority either—

(a) that the applicant or his predecessors has before the passing of this Act abstracted water from the source of supply in question for the purpose of spray irrigation, or

(b) that before the passing of this Act the applicant or his predecessors began to construct a reservoir for the storage of water to be abstracted from that source of supply and used for the purpose of spray irrigation, and that reservoir was completed and brought into use for that purpose before the second appointed day,

subsection (2) of this section shall not apply, and subsection (5) or subsection (7) (as the case may require) of section 29 of this Act shall apply in relation to the application as if it were an application for a licence other than a licence of right, and as if, in those subsections, any reference to 'the preceding provisions' were a reference to subsections (3) and (4) of this section.")
Clause 36, page 34, line 3, after ("begin") insert ("or cause or permit any other person to begin").
Clause 36, page 34, line 7, leave out ("he is authorised by").
Clause 36, page 34, line 10, after ("works") insert ("is in force").
Clause 36, page 34, line 39, leave out from ("in") to second ("authority") in line 41 and insert ("the course of the performance by a navigation authority, harbour authority or conservancy authority of their functions as such an").
Clause 37, page 35, leave out lines 21 to 35 and insert—
("(2) In any action brought against a person in respect of any obstruction or impeding of the flow of an inland water at any point by means of impounding works, it shall be a defence for him to prove that the flow was so obstructed or impeded in pursuance of a licence under this Act, and in the manner specified in that licence, and to an extent not exceeding the extent so specified, and that any other requirements of the licence were complied with.")
Clause 38, page 36, line 27, leave out subsection (3).
Clause 39, page 37, line 12, leave out ("section") and insert ("Part of this Act").
After Clause 40, insert the following new Clause:
Provisions supplementary to ss. 38 to 40
(".—(1) The provisions of this section shall have effect in relation to—

(a) applications referred to the Minister under section 38 of this Act;

(b) appeals to the Minister under section 39 of this Act where the application to the river authority was for a licence other than a licence of right; and

(c) appeals to the Minister under section 39 of this Act where the application to the river authority was for a licence of right.

(2) In relation to any application referred to the Minister as mentioned in paragraph (a) of the preceding subsection, the provisions of subsections (1) and (3) of section 28 and of subsection (3) and subsections (5) to (7) of section 29 of this Act shall apply as if in those provisions, except in section 29(3)(a), any reference to the river authority were a reference to the Minister.
(3) In determining any application referred to him under section 38 of this Act, and, in particular, in determining what (if any) direction to give under subsection (5) of that section, the Minister shall consider whether any such direction would require the grant of a licence so as to authorise derogation from protected rights.
(4) Subject to the provisions of subsections (2) and (3) of this section and of section 30 of this Act, on any such application the Minister—

(a) may determine that a licence shall be granted containing such provisions as he considers appropriate, or

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(b) if, having regard to the provisions of this Act, he considers it necessary or expedient to do so, may determine that no licence shall be granted.

(5) In relation to any such appeal as is mentioned in paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of this section—

(a) the provisions of subsection (3) (with the omission of paragraph (a)) and of subsections (5) to (7) of section 29 of this Act shall apply as if in those provisions any reference to the river authority were a reference to the Minister; and

(b) in determining the appeal, and, in particular, in determining what (if any) direction to give under section 39(6) of this Act, the Minister shall consider whether any such direction would require the grant or variation of a licence so as to authorise derogation from protected rights.

(6) In relation to any such appeal as is mentioned in paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of this section, section 33(4) and (5) and section 34 of this Act, or section 35 of this Act, as the case may be, shall apply as if any reference to the river authority were a reference to the Minister.
(7) The provisions of this section shall have effect without prejudice to section 38(4) and section 39(4) and (5) of this Act.
(8) In subsections (5) to (7) of section 29 of this Act as applied by any enactment contained in this section, any reference to 'the preceding provisions' shall be construed as a reference to—

(a) subsection (3) of that section as so applied, and

(b) subsection (3) or subsection (5)(b) of this section, as the case may be.

(9) References in this section to section 39 of this Act include references to the provisions of that section as applied by section 40 of this Act; and any reference in this section to authorising derogation from protected rights is a reference to authorising the abstraction of water, or, as the case may be, authorising the flow of an inland water to be obstructed or impeded by means of impounding works, so as to derogate from rights which, at the time when the direction in question is given, are protected rights under this Act.")
Clause 41, page 38, line 17, leave out ("40") and insert (("Provisions supplementary to sections 38 to 40")).
Clause 41, page 38, line 19, after ("licences") insert ("in pursuance of such applications").
Clause 41, page 38, line 20, at end insert:
("Provided that, where the proposed variation is limited to reducing the quantity of water authorised to be abstracted in pursuance of the licence during one or more periods, sections 28 and 39(4) of this Act shall not apply.")
Clause 42, page 38, line 24, at end insert:
("(2) Where, either in consequence of representations made to the Minister or otherwise, it appears to the Minister that a licence under this Act granted by a river authority ought to be reviewed, but no proposals for revoking or varying the licence have been formulated by the river authority under the

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preceding subsection, the Minister may, as he may consider appropriate in the circumstances,—

(a) direct the river authority to formulate proposals for revoking the licence, or

(b) direct the river authority to formulate proposals for varying the licence in such manner as may be specified in the direction.")

Clause 42, page 38, line 26, leave out ("the preceding subsection") and insert ("either of the preceding subsections").
Clause 42, page 38, line 27, after ("published") insert ("in the London Gazette and").
Clause 42, page 38, line 28, after ("newspapers") insert ("(other than the London Gazette)").
Clause 42, page 38, line 32, after ("published") insert ("(otherwise than in the London Gazette)").
Clause 42, page 38, line 44, leave out from ("during") to end of line 45 and insert ("a period specified in the notice in accordance with the next following subsection").
Page 39, line 6, leave out subsection (4) and insert:
("(4) The period specified in a notice in pursuance of the last preceding subsection shall be a period beginning not earlier than the date on which the notice is first published in a newspaper other than the London Gazette, and ending not less than twenty-eight days from that date and not less than twenty-five days from the date on which the notice is published in the London Gazette; and a river authority shall not proceed with any such proposals before the end of the period so specified.")
Clause 43, page 40, line 14, at end insert:
("(4) The provisions of subsections (5) to (7) of section 29 of this Act shall apply in relation to any proposals referred to the Minister as mentioned in subsection (1) of this section as if in those provisions any reference to the river authority were a reference to the Minister and any reference to the application were a reference to the proposals.
(5) In determining under this section whether a licence should be varied, and, if so, what direction should be given under subsection (3) of this section, the Minister shall consider whether any such direction would require the licence to be varied so as to authorise derogation from protected rights.
(6) In subsections (5) to (7) of section 29 of this Act, as applied by subsection (4) of this section, any reference to 'the preceding provisions' shall be construed as a reference to subsections (1) and (5) of this section.
(7) Any reference in this section to authorising derogation from protected rights shall be construed in accordance with subsection (9) of section (Provisions supplementary to sections 38 to 40) of this Act.")
Clause 44, page 40, line 18, leave out ("an inland water") and insert ("a source of supply in a river authority area")
Clause 44, page 40, line 22, leave out ("drought") and insert ("shortage of rain")
Clause 44, page 40, line 30, leave out from ("be") to end of line 31 and insert
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("abstracted in pursuance of the licence from the source of supply in question for use for that purpose, and, in relation to that period, the licence shall have effect subject to that reduction accordingly:
Provided that the river authority shall not serve such a notice in respect of abstraction of water from underground strata unless it appears to them that such abstraction is likely to affect the flow, level or volume of an inland water (not being an inland water falling within section 2(3) of this Act or an inland water comprised in an order under section 25 of this Act)")
Clause 44, page 40, line 34, leave out ("inland water") and insert ("source of supply")
Clause 44, page 40, line 47, leave out ("used") and insert ("abstracted for use")
Clause 45, page 41, line 33, at end insert:
("(6) For the purpose of assessing any compensation under this section, in so far as that compensation is in respect of loss or damage consisting of depreciation of the value of an interest in land, the rules set out in section 5 of the Land Compensation Act 1961 shall, so far as applicable and subject to any necessary modifications, have effect as they have effect for the purpose of assessing compensation for the compulsory acquisition of an interest in land.
(7) Where the interest in land, in respect of which any compensation falls to be assessed in accordance with the last preceding subsection, is subject to a mortgage—

(a) the compensation shall be assessed as if the interest were not subject to the mortgage;

(b) a claim for the compensation may be made by any mortgagee of the interest, but without prejudice to the making of a claim by the person entitled to the interest;

(c) no such compensation shall be payable in respect of the interest of the mortgagee (as distinct from the interest which is subject to the mortgage); and

(d) any such compensation which is payable in respect of the interest which is subject to the mortgage shall be paid to the mortgagee, or, if there is more than one mortgagee, to the first mortgagee, and shall in either case be applied by him as if it were proceeds of sale.")

After Clause 45, insert the following new clause:
Application by owner of fishing rights for revocation or variation of licence
("(1) Where a licence under this Act, not being a licence of right, authorises abstraction from an inland water in respect of which no minimum acceptable flow has been determined under Part III of this Act, then, at any time after the end of the period of one year beginning with the date on which the licence was granted but before such a minimum acceptable flow has been so determined, any person who is the owner of fishing rights in respect of that inland water may apply to the Minister for the revocation or variation of the licence.
(2) Any application under this section made by a person as owner of fishing rights in respect of an inland water shall be made on the grounds that, in his capacity as owner of those rights, he has sustained loss or damage which is directly attributable to the abstraction of water in pursuance of the licence in question, and either—

(a) he is not entitled to a protected right under this Act in respect of that inland water, or

(b) the loss or damage which he has sustained in his capacity as owner of those rights is not attributable to any such breach of statutory duty as is mentioned in subsection (1) or subsection (2) of section 48 of this Act or is in addition to any loss or damage attributable to any such breach.

(3) Where an application is made under this section, the applicant shall serve notice in the prescribed form on the river authority and on the holder of the licence, stating that each of them is entitled, at any time before the end of the period of twenty-eight days beginning with the date of service of the notice, to make representations in writing to the Minister with respect to the application; and the Minister, in determining the application, shall take into account any representations in writing received by him from the river authority or from the holder of the licence within that period.
(4) On an application under this section, the Minister shall not determine that the licence in question shall be revoked or varied unless—

(a) the grounds of the application, as mentioned in subsection (2) of this section, are established to his satisfaction, and

(b) the Minister is satisfied that the extent of the loss or damage which the applicant has sustained, as mentioned in that subsection, is such as to justify the revocation or variation of the licence,

or if he is satisfied that the fact that the abstraction of water in pursuance of the licence cause that loss or damage was wholly or mainly attributable to exceptional shortage of rain, or to an accident or other unforeseen act or event not caused by, and outside the control of, the river authority; and, where the Minister determines that the licence shall be varied, the variation shall be limited to that which, in the opinion of the Minister, is requisite having regard to that loss or damage.
(5) Subsections (2) and (3) of section 43 of this Act shall apply in relation to any matter required to be determined by the Minister under the last preceding subsection as they apply in relation to matters required to be determined by him under that section, but with the modification that an applicant under this section (as well as the holder of the licence) shall have the like rights to request a hearing, and to be heard, as the holder of the licence has under subsection (2) of that section.
(6) Section 45 of this Act shall have effect in relation to the revocation or variation of a licence under this section as it has effect in relation to the revocation or variation of a licence under section 43 of this Act.
(7) Where a licence is revoked or varied on an application under this section, the applicant shall be entitled to compensation from the river authority in respect of the loss or damage which he has sustained as mentioned in subsection (2) of this section.
(8) Where, on an application under this section for the revocation or variation of a licence, the Minister determines that the grounds of the application (as mentioned in subsection (2) of this section) have been established to his satisfaction, but that the licence shall not be revoked or varied in pursuance of that application, he shall certify accordingly; and thereupon, unless within the period of six months from the date on which that certificate is granted either—

(a) notice to treat for the acquisition of the fishing rights of the applicant, or of an interest in land which includes those rights, has been served by the river authority, or

(b) an offer has been made by the river authority to the owner of those rights to acquire those rights (or, where they subsist only as rights included in an interest in land, to acquire that interest) on terms that the price payable shall be equal to (and shall, in default of agreement, be determined in like manner as) the compensation which would be payable in respect thereof if the rights or interest were acquired compulsorily by the river authority,

the owner of the fishing rights shall be entitled to compensation from the river authority.
(9) The amount of the compensation payable under the last preceding subsection in respect of any fishing rights shall be the amount by which the value of those rights (or, where they subsist only as rights included in an interest in land, the value of that interest) is depreciated by the operation of section 31(1) of this Act in relation to the licence to which the application related.
(10) Any question of disputed compensation under subsection (7) or under subsections (8) and (9) of this section shall be referred to and determined by the Lands Tribunal; and in relation to the determination of any such compensation the provisions of sections 2 and 4 of the Land Compensation Act 1961 shall apply, subject to any necessary modifications.
(11) In this section 'fishing rights' in relation to an inland water, means any right (whether it is an exclusive right or a right in common with one or more other persons) to fish in that water, where the right in question either constitutes an interest in land or is included in an interest in land or is exercisable by virtue of an exclusive licence granted for valuable consideration; any reference to an owner of fishing rights is a reference to the person for the time being entitled to those rights; and any reference to a right included in an interest in land is a reference to a right which is exercisable only by virtue of, and as a right incidental to, the ownership of that interest.")
Clause 46, page 41, line 36, leave out from ("persons") to ("are") in line 37.
Clause 46, page 41, line 39, leave out from ("not") to end of line 6 on page 42 and insert ("the provisions of this Part of this Act and of section 98 thereof shall have effect (with the necessary modifications) as if any reference in those provisions to a licence under this Act, or to the holder of a licence under this Act, where the reference is to the revocation or variation of such a licence, included a reference to that authorisation, or to those undertakers or other persons, as the case may be").
Clause 48, page 42, line 23, at beginning insert ("A breach of").
Clause 48, page 42,line 25, after ("Act") insert ("shall not invalidate the grant or variation of a licence; and that duty").
Clause 48, page 42,line 25, leave out lines 33 to 45 and insert ("then (without prejudice to the duty of the river authority, as between that authority and the Minister, to comply with that direction) if the licence as granted or varied in compliance with the direction authorises derogation from protected rights—

(a) the grant or variation of the licence shall, as between the river authority and the person entitled to those rights, have effect as a breach on the part of the river authority of a statutory duty not to authorise derogation from those rights;

(b) the preceding subsection shall apply in relation to that statutory duty as it applies in relation to the duty imposed by section 29(2) of this Act; and

(c) the duty of the river authority to comply with the direction of the Minister shall not afford any defence in an action brought in pursuance of that subsection as applied by the last preceding paragraph:

Provided that this subsection shall not apply to a direction given in consequence of an appeal against the decision of the river authority on an application for the grant of a licence of right").
Clause 48, page 43, line 2, after ("section") insert ("(including that subsection as applied by the last preceding subsection)").
Clause 48, page 43, line 8, leave out ("drought") and insert ("shortage of rain").
Clause 48, page 43, line 46, at end insert:
("(6) In this section any reference to authorising derogation from protected rights shall be construed in accordance with subsection 9 of section (Provisions supplementary to sections 38 to 40) of this Act.")
Clause 49, page 44, line 28, at end insert:
("(3) Where under section (Application by owner of fishing rights for revocation or variation of licence) of this Act—

(a) the Minister determines that a licence shall be revoked or varied, and in consequence of that determination compensation is payable by a river authority in respect of the revocation or variation of the licence, or

(b) the Minister determines that a licence shall be revoked or varied, and in consequence
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of that determination compensation is payable by the river authority under subsection (7) of that section in a case where the licence was granted in compliance with a direction given by the Minister, or

(c) the Minister determines that a licence shall not be revoked or varied, and in consequence of that determination compensation is payable by a river authority under subsection (8) of that section,

the last preceding subsection shall have effect in relation to that compensation as it has effect in relation to compensation payable in the circumstances mentioned in the last preceding subsection.")
Clause 51, page 45, line 10, at end insert ("and also containing such information as may be so prescribed with respect to persons becoming the holders of licences by virtue of section 32 of this Act or regulations made under that section")
Clause 54, page 47, line 36, at end insert ("and for the purposes of those provisions of this Part of this Act any licence granted on the application shall be treated as not having effect until the application has been disposed of")
Clause 54, page 48, line 3, after ("29") insert ("and section 52(3)")
Clause 54, page 48, line 5, leave out from ("but") to end of line 10 and insert—

("(a) section 34(3) to (5) and section (Provisions supplementary to sections 38 to 40) of this Act shall have effect in relation to any such application, or to any appeal against the decision on such an application, as if it were an application for a licence of right, and

(b) section 48(2) of this Act shall not apply to any direction given in consequence of such an appeal.

(4) Section (Application by owner of fishing rights of revocation or variation of licence) of this Act shall not apply to a licence granted in pursuance of an application under subsection (2) of this section.")
Clause 54, page 48, line 11, leave out subsection (4) and insert:
("(4) Subsection (1) of section 31 of this Act shall not afford any defence to an action brought before the end of the relevant transitional period if the licence referred to in that subsection is a licence of right granted to a person as being entitled to it by virtue only of section 33(1)(b) of this Act; and that subsection as applied by subsection (1) of this section shall not afford any defence to such an action if the application in question was made by a person as being entitled to a licence of right by virtue only of the said section 33(1)(b).
In this subsection 'the relevant transitional period', in relation to a licence granted by a river authority, means the period beginning with the second appointed day and ending with the coming into operation of a charging scheme prepared by that river authority under Part V of this Act.")
Clause 54, page 48, line 23, leave out from ("in") to end of line 24 and insert ("an

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action in respect of which the last preceding subsection has effect or in any proceedings in consequence of such an action")
Clause 54, page 48, line 26, leave out from ("of") to end of line 31 and insert ("on (but not before) the occurrence of whichever of the following events last occurs, that is to say—

(a) on the determination of the application by the river authority, a licence is granted and the provisions of that licence are in accordance with the proposals contained in the application;

(b) on a reference of the application to the Minister under section 38 of this Act, the Minister refuses to grant a licence;

(c) the period (if any) within which the applicant is entitled to give notice of appeal against the decision on the application expires without such a notice having been given;

(d) an appeal against that decision is determined or withdrawn;

(e) in compliance with a direction given by the Minister in consequence of such an appeal or (in the case of an application referred to the Minister under section 38 of this Act) in consequence of a decision of the Minister on the application, the river authority grant, vary or revoke a licence under this Act")

3.51 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, in this group of Amendments, which are to the second half of Part IV, there are a number of some substance. Under Nos. 74 and 75, the quantity authorised by a licence of right for statutory users—and this is in Clause 34—is to be based primarily on the past performance. This, of course, will be very welcome to statutory water undertakers, because the previous provisions of the clause were considered to be not specific enough, and to leave too much discretion in the hands of the river authorities. But now the licence of right will, as I say, be based mainly on past performance before other matters are taken into consideration.
Amendments Nos. 78 and 79 follow out the same sort of thing in respect of non-statutory users. This new clause, after Clause 35, spells out the terms of the licences of right for such users instead of relying on references to Clause 34, as it did previously. Likewise, the quantities authorised will, in the main, be based on past performance. This was the point which specially exercised my noble friend Lord Merrivale. In addition in these two Amendments, there is a very important provision referring to spray irrigation, which says that unless water had been abstracted or a reservoir
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had been constructed for the purpose of spray irrigation before the passing of this Act, then the application is to depend on the minimum acceptable flow as though it were an ordinary licence application. That will effectively prevent people from climbing on to the bandwagon, as it were, not always with strictly honourable intentions. Therefore, this should bring a good deal of relief, I think, to the minds of other users of water.
Then we come to Amendment No. 98, and here I think I must refer at greater length to the notes on the Amendment. This is a matter in which my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross is particularly interested. It deals with Clause 43. Clause 42, subsection (5), provides that where a licence holder objects to proposals formulated by a river authority under that clause for varying or revoking his licence, the proposals are to be referred to the Minister for determination. Clause 43 at present outlines the procedure to be followed by the Minister in doing so, but what it does not do—and it is the purpose of this Amendment to correct the omission—is to prescribe the considerations which the Minister must have in mind in making his determination. The Amendment thus does, in respect of proposals referred to him under this clause, what the new clause after Clause 40 (and here I must bring in Amendment No. 87) does in respect of applications referred to the Minister under Clauses 38 and 39, and is virtually consequential on that new clause, Clause 40. The essence of the new provisions sought to be inserted in this clause is that the Minister will be under a duty to have regard to the minimum acceptable flow, and to consider whether any direction he gives to a river authority as a result of his determination of the proposals would require the licence to be varied so as to authorise derogation from protected rights.
Amendment No. 87, the new clause after Clause 40, deals with the same problem of minimum acceptable flows and protected rights when the Minister is handling an application or an appeal. The river authority, of course, is under a matter of obligation to respect those two matters. The Minister was not under an obligation, strictly speaking, to consider them. Now they are specified;

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he must actually take them into consideration as one of his major duties. But that does not prevent him, of course, from authorising a derogation from protected rights should it in his opinion prove to be necessary, in which case river authorities are of course indemnified against any damages which they may incur as a result of direction by the Minister. I think that does go a good deal of the way towards fulfilling what my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross was asking for.
The provisions of Clause 42 do, of course, enable any person to make representations to the river authority about the proposed revocation or variation, as in the case of an ordinary licence under the Bill to impound. The only thing which we have not been able to do, but which my noble friend asked us, is to enable a third party opposed to the licence holder to secure an inquiry or hearing into the proposals. This is because we feel that the other protective provision already mentioned should be adequate, and that there is no real reason to distinguish between the revocation or variation of an ordinary licence and that of a licence for a relevant statutory authorisation under this clause.
I will pass on to No. 105, which goes with No. 114. That deals with the application by an owner of fishing rights for the revocation or variation of a licence. The difficulty here, the real root of the problem, was that, although the fishing interests do now accept that the determination of a minimum acceptable flow and its observance will be an adequate protection for them, they are still unconvinced that, in the period between the second appointed day and the fixing of a minimum acceptable flow for any particular stream, the requirements of Clause 29, subsection (5), would be a sufficient protection. Really, the present additions and Amendments, although they seem to be very long, are being made not because of any doubt as to the adequacy of the minimum acceptable flow system, but to fill the gap until it has got into its stride.
Finally, there is only one thing I would say to my noble friend Lord Albemarle in respect of Clause 48. He in fact brought it up in connection with the previous group, but it belongs to this
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group. We were not able to meet the point he wanted there, or what the River Boards Association wanted, because it would mean, really, that the river authorities could simply not take any notice of Clause 29, subsection (2), and could not regard at all protected rights. Obviously, that would be quite impossible to allow. My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with this series of Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Hastings.)
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, on this group of Amendments I have only three points to raise. Two of those are complimentary, and one is a little critical. First of all, let me get the compliments out of the way—though that is not because we in any way want to minimise the compliments that we are giving this afternoon, for I think this Bill has been very materially improved. The first comment concerns Amendment No. 74 and the licence of right: to put it in rough and ready language, the Amendment gives the undertaker the right of abstraction as at present. This was the point we were worried about in Committee, and I would say that in this regard the Amendment gives everything that the water abstracter, the statutory water undertaker, would have liked. Or, if it is not quite all that they would have liked, it is certainly a considerable improvement on the original Bill. Amendments Nos. 78 and 79, as the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, has said, deal with licences of right of the non-statutory users. During Committee stage I expressed the particular concern of quite a number of statutory water undertakers in regard to the establishment of rights after the passing of the Bill and before the appointed day—and there was particular concern over spray irrigation. As the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, has said, this new Clause 35, is an improvement and I think it meets all the points that one has cause to expect to be met, in so far as the licences are concerned.
When we come to Amendment No. 105, we find that it is somewhat complicated; and when one tries to reduce a complicated clause into comparatively few words one sometimes becomes rather more complicated than the original. But

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this deals with the right of fishing interests to apply for a variation or revocation of a licence, other than a licence of right granted by a river authority. That opportunity to apply for variation or revocation continues until the minimum acceptable flow has been fixed. That may be a very long time—perhaps five, ten, fifteen or twenty years; and for some rivers a minimum acceptable flow may never be fixed. This is giving a right to the fishing interests to apply for a variation or revocation for an unknown period or, at least, for a period until a minimum flow has been fixed.
One should point out that before a licence to abstract is granted the application must go to the river authority and notice must be published in the London Gazette. The application is considered by the river authority on which the fishing interests are represented, and the authority will take into consideration all the possible aspects and effects of the abstraction, including the rights of the fishing interests. So I think one can say that the river authority would never give a right of abstraction to agriculture, to industry or to the statutory water undertaker unless they were satisfied that it would not injure the fishing interests. It is, of course, true that the fishing interests have the right of notification in the London Gazette and to make their representations, and all the rest.
There is, however, a new principle in this clause that I do not like. Under the Bill's general construction the rights of proposal for variation or revocation are left with the river authority. They consider the position in the light of the circumstances of the river, and so on; and if they feel it necessary they can vary a given right of abstraction, or revoke it. Before they do so, they must get the Minister's approval; and the Minister takes into account the consequences of the variation or revocation, and the compensation—and I think I am right in saying that in some instances the Minister can pay the compensation. Here is a complete reversal of that process. The fishing interests are given a privileged position; because, ignoring the river board, they can go direct to the Minister, who considers it and can then vary or revoke. I am not anti-fishing interests. Fishing is not one of my hobbies;
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it is too slow for me. What fishing I have seen seems to consist of sitting on the bank of the Serpentine or Highgate Ponds and never seeming to catch anything. I am not prejudiced for or against the fishing interests; but it seems to me quite wrong that when industry has been given a right of abstraction by a river board (who have taken into consideration all the factors in the case) and has had that right for five, ten or fifteen years, a fishing interest can come along, suddenly, and apply for a variation or revocation.
I know that compensation is payable to industrial interests when they lose their licence, but compensation is not everything. In the case of say, a papermill situated on a river bank it may well be that 20, 50, 100 or 200 or more men's jobs may be affected. Surely there ought to be a time limit in the grant of facilities likely to affect somebody else's interests. There is always a right of appeal, and we should, of course, object if this were not so. But the right of appeal ought not, I think, to be held over a person's head for a very long time or even, in some cases, for ever, if no minimum acceptable flow is fixed for a particular river.
Therefore, while at this stage one would hesitate to do anything to delay the Bill (because it is a big improvement on what already exists in regard to water conservancy and we welcome it as a whole), I feel that this introduction of a new clause is putting fishing interests into a privileged position. It is making it difficult for river boards, and making it more difficult for industrialists, agriculturists or statutory water undertakers who, although they may have been given the right of abstraction for an unlimited period of time, may yet have their plans upset and their arrangements scrapped; or may lose capital which has been put into industry, or a reservoir or container. I think such a state of affairs is unusual. Surely the Minister would agree that there ought to be a time limit on the right of appeal.
This point was raised in another place and, with all due respect to the Parliamentary Secretary who replied for the Government there, it seems to me, in reading his speech, that he entirely missed the point. He seemed to take it that the honourable Members of another place

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who raised the point were asking for a limit on the operation of a clause. It is nothing of the kind. What we suggest is that there ought to be a time limit on the right of the fishing interests to apply for the variation of the licence. After all, we must always remember that the amount to be astracted is determined in the licence; so the fishing interests know at the start how much is going to be abstracted; and the fee that they have to pay for the water is also included in the licence. We know that every abstracter will be abstracting up to the limit, and that, in any case, the river authority would not give a licence to abstract more than they felt was reasonable. Therefore, if that abstraction has been going on to the limit of the licences for, say, three years then, surely, that is sufficient time for the fishing organisations to know whether or not their interests have been damaged. I should be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, would try to give us his views in regard to this; and whether or not there can be some regulation at a later date under which the limit can be fixed in regard to their right to apply for revocation or variation.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to make one or two brief remarks in reply to the noble Lord, whom I thank for his kind remarks in respect of other Amendments and of the Bill in general. It is true, as the noble Lord said, that this clause will operate so long as a minimum acceptable flow has not been fixed. Perhaps there will be a few cases, but not many, where it may not have to be necessary to fix a minimum acceptable flow, in which cases I should have thought it hardly likely that fishing would be damaged. Even so, there is obviously a limit to fixing a minimum accessible flow in cases where it is necessary.
Before that has been done, however, the owner of fishing rights has to prove that the damage he has suffered is directly attributable to the abstraction made by an industrialist or whoever it may be. If abstraction has been going on for a period and the owner of fishing rights has suffered no damage, it is hardly likely that four or five years later he will suffer damage directly attributable to that abstraction. It would be difficult to prove. Perhaps the noble Lord has overlooked—although I feel sure he cannot have done
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so—that the Minister is under no obligation to grant a revocation or variation. The suggestion that he may vary or revoke a licence which would damage, for example, a paper pulp mill, in order to look after the rights of an owner of fishing, is highly hypothetical. I should have thought that it would be much more likely that he would refuse to vary or revoke and then the owner of fishing rights would get compensation, rather than the other way round. I hope that after these brief comments the noble Lord will not feel so distressed about this clause.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 56, page 50, line 22, leave out from ("the") to the end of line 27 and insert ("expenses and other amounts which, in accordance with those provisions, are debited to that account")
Clause 57, page 50, line 34, leave out ("(f)") and insert ("(h)")
Clause 59, page 52, line 30, leave out ("(4)") and insert ("(6)")
Page 53, line 13, leave out ("(f)") and insert ("(h")
Clause 64, page 59, line 42, at end insert—
("(e) as to any exceptions and modifications subject to which the provisions of subsections (3) to (5) of this section are to have effect where an interest in any of the servient land is subject to a mortgage, or is subject to a rentcharge, chief rent or other rent, payment or incumbrance.")
Clause 69, page 63, line 33, at end insert—
("(3) Where, on an application under section (Application by owner of fishing rights for revocation or variation of licence) of this Act, the Minister—

(a) determines that the licence to which the application relates shall not be revoked or varied, and

(b) grants a certificate under subsection (8) of that section,

and notice to treat for the acquisition of the fishing rights to which the application related, or of an interest in land in which those rights are included, has been served by the river authority within the period of six months from the date on which that certificate is granted, then, for the purpose of assessing compensation in respect of any compulsory acquisition in pursuance of that notice to treat, no account shall be taken of any depreciation of the value of the fishing rights, or of the interest in question, which is applicable to the operation, in relation to that licence, of section 31(1) of this Act.
Subsection (11) of section (Application by owner of fishing rights for revocation or variation of licence) of this Act shall apply for the purposes of this subsection as it applies for the purposes of that section.")
Clause 70, page 64, line 11, leave out ("pipe or other work") and insert ("or pipe")
Clause 70, page 64, line 30, leave out ("pipe or other work") and insert ("or pipe")
Clause 71, page 66, line 15, leave out from second ("section") to end of line 17 and insert ("subject to the necessary modifications and, in particular, with the substitution for the reference to section 40 of this Act of a reference to subsection (4) of the last preceding section")
After Clause 72, insert the following new clause:—
Register of consents under s. 70
("(1) Every river authority shall keep, in such manner as may be prescribed, a register containing such particulars as may be prescribed of consents granted by them under section 70 of this Act which are for the time being in force; and so much of the register as relates to any such consent shall, in favour of a person charged with an offence under that section, be conclusive as to the terms of the consent as it has effect for the time being, including the conditions subject to which it so has effect.
(2) Every register kept under this section shall be available for inspection by the public at all reasonable hours.")
Insert the following new clause:—
Emergency measures in case of pollution of waters
("(1) Where it appears to a river authority that any poisonous, noxious or polluting matter is present in an inland water in the area of the river authority, and has entered that inland water in consequence of an accident or other unforeseen act or event, the river authority, subject to the following provisions of this section, may carry out such operations as the authority consider necessary or expedient for either or both of the following purposes, that is to say—

(a) removing that matter from the inland water, and disposing of it in such manner as the authority consider appropriate, and

(b) remedying or mitigating any pollution caused by its presence in the inland water.

(2) The power conferred by the preceding subsection does not include power to construct any works, other than works of a temporary character which are removed on or before the completion of the operations.
(3) Section 3(5) of this Act shall apply in relation to the powers conferred by this section as if they had been included among the functions of river boards transferred to river authorities by section 5 of this Act; and those powers shall be included among the transferred functions of river authorities accordingly.
(4) In section 127(2)(a) of this Act the reference to functions relating to river pollution includes the powers conferred by this section.
(5) Nothing in this section shall be construed as derogating from any duty of a river authority to enforce the provisions of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Acts 1951 to 1961 in their area.")
Insert the following new clause:—
Special measures for securing proper use of water resources
("(1) Any reference in this Act to action for the purpose of securing the proper use of water resources shall (without prejudice to the generality thereof) be taken to include action of any description to which this section applies for the purpose of rendering the quality of the water contained in an inland water more suitable for a particular use for which the water is required.
(2) This section applies to the making and (on the part of the river authority) the performance of an agreement between a river authority and a sewerage authority whereby, in consideration of payments to be made by the river authority, the sewerage authority will secure the removal to a different point, or other alteration, of an outlet from which sewage effluent (within the meaning of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Act 1951) is discharged by the sewerage authority into an inland water in the area of the river authority.
(3) This section also applies to the carrying out by a river authority of any operations, other than engineering or building operations which are excepted from this subsection by directions given by the Minister, either to river authorities generally or to a particular river authority.")
Clause 74, page 69, line 13, at end insert ("other than the river authority")
Clause 74, page 69,line 30, leave out from ("made") to ("by") in line 31.
Clause 75, page 70, line 13, at end insert—
("(2) Subject to subsection (5) of this section, where the use for the purposes of any form of recreation of an inland water (not being a reservoir to which the preceding subsection applies) is for the time being regulated by byelaws made by a river authority by virtue of subsection (3) of the last preceding section, the river authority may provide, or otherwise make available, facilities for use by persons resorting to that inland water for the purposes of that form of recreation.")
Clause 75, page 70, line 17, leave out ("the preceding subsection") and insert ("either of the preceding subsections")
Clause 75, page 70, line 21, after ("(1)") insert ("or subsection (2)")
Clause 75, page 70, line 28, at end insert—
("(5) The expenditure incurred by a river authority in connection with the exercise of the powers conferred on them by subsection (2) of this section shall be limited so that, taking one year with another, it will not exceed the aggregate of—

(a) the amounts received by the authority in respect of the use of facilities made available under that subsection, or the letting of works constructed for the purpose of providing facilities under that subsection, and

(b) the amounts so received by way of charges required by any byelaw made by virtue of subsection (3) (as extended by subsection (6)) of the last preceding section

1085
to be paid for the registration of boats for use on an inland water to which subsection (2) of this section applies.")

Clause 76, page 70, line 29, leave out from ("may") to ("enter") in line 30 and insert ("subject to the next following subsection")
Clause 76, page 71, line 2, at end insert—
("(2) The Minister may, by a direction given either to a particular river authority or to river authorities generally, direct that, in such cases or classes of cases as are specified in the direction, the authority or authorities to whom the direction is given shall not enter into any agreement under this section except with the consent of the Minister and after prior consultation with the Water Resources Board.")
Clause 77, page 73, line 5, at end insert—
("(7) Where, by virtue of an order or agreement under this section, property is transferred to a river authority on the terms that—

(a) the body from whom it is transferred shall continue liable for the repayment of, and payment of interest on, any sum borrowed in connection with the property, and

(b) the river authority shall make payments to that authority in respect of amounts paid by them by reason of their continuing so liable,

any payment so made by the river authority shall be deemed to be a capital payment or an annual payment according as the amount in respect of which it is made was paid in or towards repayment of the loan or by way of interest thereon.")
Clause 78, page 73, line 23, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert—
("(2) There shall be carried to the credit of the water resources account of a river a uthority—

(a) all amounts received by the authority in connection with their new functions, including such part (if any) of any amount paid to the authority under section 82 of this Act (whether in pursuance of a precept issued under that section or to make good a deficiency calculated under subsection (7) of that section in respect of such a precept) as is attributable to those functions;

(b) so much of any receipts of the authority in their capacity as a drainage authority or fisheries authority, or as successors to a navigation authority, harbour authority or conservancy authority, as may be determined by the river authority to represent the extent to which expenditure incurred by the authority in the performance of their new functions has contributed, or will contribute, towards the performance of their functions in that capacity.

(3) There shall be debited to the water resources account of a river authority—

(a) all expenses incurred and payments made by the authority in connection with their new functions, including so much of the necessary and proper establishment expenses of the authority as is attributable to those functions, but excluding any expenses which, in accordance with the
1086
following provisions of this Part of this Act are defrayed out of any reserve fund or replacement fund maintained by them and any payments made out of any sinking fund so maintained;

(b)so much of any expenses incurred and payments made by the authority, in their capacity as a drainage authority or fisheries authority, or as successors to a navigation authority, harbour authority or conservancy authority, in respect of matters contributing towards the performance of their new functions (including any amounts paid into any sinking fund maintained by them, but excluding any payments made out of such a fund) as may be determined by the river authority to be expenses or payments which ought to be debited to that account;

(c)any amounts which, in accordance with the following provisions of this Part of this Act, are paid by the authority, out of receipts carried to the credit of that account, into any reserve fund or replacement fund maintained by them and any amounts paid by the authority out of such receipts into any sinking fund so maintained;

(d)such part (if any) of any excess calculated under section 82(7) of this Act, and repaid by the authority in pursuance of that subsection, as has been carried to the credit of that account in accordance with paragraph (a) of the last preceding subsection.

(4) References in this section to a river authority in their capacity as a fisheries authority are references to the river authority in their capacity as a body having functions relating to fisheries.")
Clause 79, page 74, leave out lines 33 and 34 and insert ("carried to the credit of their water resources account")
Clause 79, page 74, line 35, leave out subsection (3) and insert—
("(3) Except with the consent of the Minister, no sum shall be paid into the reserve fund of a river authority so as to make the amount at any time comprised in the fund exceed ten per cent. of the aggregate amount of capital expenditure incurred by the authority and their predecessors before that time; and the amount paid into the reserve fund of a river authority in any financial year shall not, except with the consent of the Minister, exceed one per cent. of the aggregate amount of capital expenditure incurred by the authority and their predecessors before the beginning of that year.")
Clause 79, page 75, line 4, at end insert ("and references in this and the next following section to capital expenditure incurred before any time by the predecessors of a river authority are references—

(a)in the case of a river authority established by virtue of section 3 of this Act to any capital expenditure incurred by the river board or boards for whose area or areas the river authority is so established, and

(b)in the case of a river authority established by an order under section 10 of this Act, to any capital expenditure incurred

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before that time by a river authority whose area is wholly included in the area of that river authority, and such proportion as the Minister may determine of any capital expenditure so incurred by a river authority whose area is partly so included")

Clause 80, page 75, leave out lines 11 to 21 and insert ("defraying the cost of replacing or repairing any plant, machinery, vehicle or article belonging to the authority or any part of any such plant, machinery, vehicle or article")
Clause 80, page 75, line 22, leave out subsection (4) and insert—
("(4) Except with the consent of the Minister, no sum shall be paid into the replacement fund of a river authority so as to make the amount at any time comprised in the fund exceed five per cent. of the aggregate amount of capital expenditure incurred by the authority and their predecessors before that time; and the amount paid into the replacement fund of a river authority in any financial year shall not, except with the consent of the Minister, exceed one-half of one per cent. of the aggregate amount of capital expenditure incurred by the authority and their predecessors before the beginning of that year.")
Clause 82, page 76, line 25, leave out from beginning to ("shall") in line 45 and insert—
("(1) For the purposes of this section the aggregate amount required to be raised by precept by a river authority for any financial year shall be ascertained as follows, that is to say—

(a) subject to the following paragraphs, that aggregate amount shall be an amount equal to so much of the expenditure of the river authority for that financial year as is not debited to the water resources account of the authority and is neither defrayed out of any reserve fund, replacement fund or sinking fund maintained by the authority nor defrayed out of sums received by the authority in respect of that year otherwise than by virtue of this section, together with so much of the total amount (if any) paid by the authority in that financial year into any such replacement fund or sinking fund as is not debited to the water resources account of the authority;

(b) in the case of any financial year for which the relevant water resources expenditure of the river authority exceeds the relevant water resources receipts of the authority, the amount of the excess shall be added to the amount specified in the preceding paragraph;

(c) there shall also be added to the amount specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection any amount required to be provided in that financial year by way of new working capital, and there shall be added to, or (as the case may be) deducted from, the amount so specified any amount required to be brought forward from a previous financial year, and to be so added or deducted, in accordance with the following' provisions of this section.

(2) In paragraph (b) of the preceding subsection 'relevant water resources expenditure', in relation to any financial year, means any
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expenditure of the river authority, and any amount paid by the authority into a replacement fund or sinking fund maintained by them, which—

(a) is incurred or paid before the coming into operation of a charging scheme prepared by the river authority, and

(b) is debited in respect of that year to the water resources account of the authority by virtue of any of paragraphs (a) to (c) of section 78(3) of this Act,

and 'relevant water resources receipts', in relation to a financial year, means any receipts of a river authority which, not being sums received by virtue of this section, are carried to the credit of the water resources account of the authority for that year:
Provided that the Minister may in any particular case direct that, in relation to any financial year of a river authority specified in the direction, paragraph (a) of this subsection shall be disregarded, either wholly or in respect of any such expenditure or amount as may be so specified.
(3) Not later than the end of the month of February immediately preceding each financial year, each river authority shall estimate the aggregate amount required to be raised by precept by the river authority for that year; and that amount.")
Page 77, line 10, at end insert—
("(3A) If at any time during a financial year it appears to a river authority that the aggregate amount for which they have issued precepts for that year will fall short of the aggregate amount required to be raised by precept by the authority for that year, the authority shall estimate the amount of the deficiency; and the provisions of subsections (3) and (4) of this section shall have effect in relation to an amount estimated under this subsection as they have effect in relation to an amount estimated under subsection (3) of this section.")
Page 77, line 13, leave out ("in") and insert ("for")
Page 77, line 14, at end insert ("the whole number of")
Page 77, line 19, after ("of") insert ("the whole number of")
Page 78, line 25, at end insert—
("(9) As soon as practicable after the end of each financial year, each river authority shall also ascertain the actual amount which was the aggregate amount required to be raised by precept by the authority for that year, and shall determine whether, and (if so) how far, the aggregate amount for which precepts have been issued by the river authority for that year exceeds or falls short of the amount ascertained under this subsection; and if the comparison under this subsection shows an excess or a deficiency, the amount of the excess or deficiency shall be brought forward to the next financial year and (if an excess) shall be deducted, or (if a deficiency) shall be added, in ascertaining the aggregate amount required to be raised by precept by the river authority for that next financial year.
(10) The preceding provisions of this section shall have effect subject to the provisions of Part I of Schedule (Transitional provisions relating to precepts and borrowing powers of river authorities) to this Act in the circumstances specified in that Part of that Schedule.")
Clause 83, page 78, line 33, leave out from ("account") to ("shall") in line 34.
Clause 83, page 78, line 36, leave out from ("account") to end of line 37.
Clause 83, page 78, line 38, leave out from ("any") to end of line 40 and insert ("receipts of the river authority which are paid into a replacement fund maintained by them under section 80 of this Act, to any special drainage charges levied by the authority under section 3 of the Land Drainage Act 1961, or to any receipts of the authority in their capacity as the drainage board of an internal drainage district")
Clause 87, page 81, line 14, at end insert ("and a river authority shall not by virtue of paragraph (d) of that subsection have power to borrow for the purpose of making any payment to a sinking fund or of paying any instalment, or making any annual payment, which has or may become due in respect of borrowed money.
(4) Moneys borrowed by a river authority under subsection (2) of this section shall be charged indifferently on all the revenues of the authority except any such funds as are referred to in section 83(1) of this Act")
Clause 83, page 82, line 21, at end insert—
("(8) The provisions of Part II of Schedule (Transitional provisions relating to precepts and borrowing powers of river authorities) to this Act shall have effect with respect to borrowing before the second appointed day.")
Clause 89, page 82, line 39, leave out from ("whose") to end of line 42 and insert "functions are transferred by virtue of section 5 of this Act to a river authority (in those provisions referred to as 'the authority') to whom none of the functions of any other river board are so transferred")
Clause 93, page 87, line 39, leave out from ("whose") to end of line 41 and insert ("functions are transferred by virtue of section 5 of this Act to a river authority to whom the functions of another river board are also so transferred")
Clause 93, page 88, line 2, leave out from ("whose") to end of line 5 and insert ("functions are transferred to the same river authority as mentioned in this subsection, and 'the authority' means the river authority to whom the functions of those boards are transferred")
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 122 to 162 embrace Parts V, VI, VII, VIII and IX of the Bill. It is only on the Amendments to Part VII that I have any comment to make. I would draw your Lordships' attention to Amendment No. 132, which puts a new clause into the Bill to deal with
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cases of accidental pollution. At the moment there are powers only for the prevention and not for the curing of pollution, under the Prevention of Pollution Acts, 1951–61. This new clause allows for emergency action to be taken by river authorities supplementary to existing powers, so that they can actually clean up the results of pollution, if it should occur, although, of course, the main philosophy is the prevention of pollution.
I come to Amendment No. 133, which imposes a new duty on the river authorities and refers to the action they must take for improving the quality of water. I think that this is a useful provision. An example of its operation is to oblige a sewage disposal works to change the point of its outfall to another point where the flow would be greater, so that the quality of water would be improved for the use of those abstracting in the area. Amendments Nos. 136 to 139 extend the powers of the river authority to provide recreational facilities on inland waters other than their own reservoirs or waters owned or managed by them where they have made by-laws for recreation. I think this would be welcome to a great many people. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 96, page 90, line 30, at end insert—
("(2) In formulating or considering any such proposals, river authorities and the Water Resources Board and any Minister having functions under this Act, having regard to the desirability of preserving public rights of access to areas of mountain, moor, heath, down, cliff or foreshore and other places of natural beauty, shall each take into account any effect which the proposals would have on the preservation of any such rights of access.")
Clause 98, page 91, line 14, at end insert—
("(d) that they receive a supply of water in bulk from any statutory water undertakers who fulfil the condition specified in paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) of this subsection.")
Clause 98, page 91, line 21, after ("undertakers") insert ("and of any statutory water undertakers who receive a supply of water in bulk from those undertakers")
Clause 98, page 91,line 24, at end insert ("'supply of water in bulk'")
Clause 102, page 92, line 42, leave out from first ("the") to ("functions") in line 45 and insert ("appropriate Minister or Ministers may give to river authorities such directions in relation to any of their transferred functions as he or they consider expedient for the purpose of securing the effective performance of any of their new")
Clause 102, page 93, line 13, at end insert—
("(6) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section any question as to the Minister or Ministers who is or are the appropriate Minister or Ministers in relation to any transferred functions of river authorities shall be determined as if in that subsection the words from 'for the purpose of securing' onwards were omitted.")
Clause 104, page 95, line 11, at end insert ("and as if the expression 'department' in that section included the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food")
Clause 107, page 98, line 2, at end, insert—
("(3) A person shall not by virtue of the last preceding section be entitled to enter or remain on land occupied by statutory water undertakers unless he complies with any reasonable requirements imposed by the undertakers for the purpose of protecting water against pollution; and any question arising under this subsection as to what requirements are reasonable shall, in case of dispute, be determined by the Minister, whose decision shall be final.")
Clause 109, page 100, line 22, leave out ("an occupier of premises") and insert ("the occupier of any land")
Clause 109, page 100, line 24, after ("him") insert ("or on his behalf")
Clause 110, page 100, line 34, at end insert ("or the consent of a river authority under section 70 thereof")
Clause 110, page 100, line 37, at end insert—
("(2) Where the provisions contained in a licence under this Act in pursuance of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section 30 of this Act, or in pursuance of that paragraph as modified by subsection (6) of that section, require the use of a meter, gauge or other device, and such a device is used for the purposes of those provisions, any person who wilfully alters or interferes with that device so as to prevent it from measuring correctly shall be guilty of an offence under this section.")
Clause 112, page 102, line 16, leave out ("within the meaning of") and insert ("or other persons referred to in")
Clause 112, page 102, line 18, after ("to") insert ("section 38 or")
Clause 112, page 102, line 20, leave out ("58(4)") and insert ("38 or the said section 58(4), as the case may be")
Clause 116, page 104, line 29, after ("7(5)") insert ("or 7(6)")
Clause 116, page 104, line 46, after ("latest") insert ("financial")
Clause 116, page 105, line 12, after second ("the") insert ("financial")
Clause 118, page 105, line 32, leave out from ("subsection") to ("in") in line 33 and insert ("no power of compulsory acquisition conferred on a river authority by or under Part VI of this Act, no other compulsory power so conferred (including any power conferred on river authorities by virtue of section 67(3) of this Act) and no power of entry or inspection conferred by or under this Part of this Act shall, except with the consent of the appropriate authority, be exercisable")
Clause 118, page 106, line 2, leave out ("and")
Clause 118, page 106, line 6, at end insert ("and 'the appropriate authority' has the same meaning as in section 199 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1962, and the provisions of subsection (6) of that section as to the determination of questions shall apply for the purposes of this section")
After Clause 121, insert the following new clause:
Consultation with authorities in Scotland
("(1) Where a river authority area adjoins any part of Scotland, and it appears to the river authority that there may be water in watercourses or underground strata in that part of Scotland, or in the river authority area, which could be transferred from that part of Scotland to the river authority area, or from the river authority area to that part of Scotland, as the case may be, the river authority shall, in so far as they consider it appropriate to do so, consult with local water authorities, river purification authorities and other authorities in that part of Scotland with a view to securing the best use of that water in the public interest.
(2) In this section 'local water authority' and 'river purification authority' have the meanings assigned to them respectively by section 5(4) of the Water (Scotland) Act 1946 and section 17(1) of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) (Scotland) Act 1951.")
After Clause 122, insert the following new clause:—
Temporary provision for restricting abstraction of water for spray irrigation
("(1) If at any time after the passing of this Act it appears to the Ministers, either on the application of a river board or river authority or without any such application, that by reason of exceptional shortage of rain it is necessary to restrict the abstraction of water for the purpose of spray irrigation, the Ministers, subject to the following provisions of this section, may make an order under this section accordingly:
Provided that no order (other than an order which only revokes a previous order) shall be made under this section after the end of the period of six months beginning with the second appointed day.
(2) Any order under this section may be made so as to apply to—

(a) one or more inland waters specified in the order, not being inland waters falling within section 2(3) of this Act, or

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(b) all inland waters (other than those falling within section 2(3) of this Act) in an area specified in the order or in a part so specified of such an area,

and shall specify a period (not exceeding three months) for which any prohibition imposed by the order is to have effect.
(3) Subject to the last preceding subsection, an order under this section may provide that, during the period specified in the order in accordance with that subsection, the abstraction of water for the purpose of spray irrigation from any inland water to which the order applies—

(a) shall be wholly prohibited, or

(b) shall be prohibited subject to such exceptions as may be specified in the order in accordance with the next following subsection,

and different provision (including provision specifying different exceptions) may be made in the order in relation to different inland waters.
(4) Any exception specified in an order as mentioned in paragraph (b) of the last preceding subsection shall be formulated by reference to either or both of the following matters, that is to say—

(a) the abstraction of water on particular days specified in the order, and

(b) the abstraction of water for the purpose of spray irrigation of particular crops specified in the order, or of land which is for the time being used for particular agricultural purposes so specified, whether by reference to the growing of particular crops or otherwise.

(5) Where a river board or river authority apply to the Ministers for an order under this section, or the Ministers propose without any such application to make such an order, the river board or river authority or the Ministers, as the case may be, shall publish a notice—

(a) stating the general effect of the application or proposal, and

(b) stating that any person may, by notice in writing given to either of the Ministers within the period of seven days beginning with the date of first publication of the notice, object to the application or proposal;

and, if before the end of that period an objection is received by either of the Ministers from a person appearing to him to be affected by the application or proposal, and the objection is not withdrawn, the Ministers, before making an order, shall either cause a local inquiry to be held or shall afford to the objector, and, in the case of an application by a river board or river authority, to that board or authority, an opportunity of appearing before, and being heard by, a person appointed by the Ministers for the purpose.
(6) Where the Ministers make an order under this section, they shall take such steps (whether by the publication of notices or otherwise) as they may consider most suitable for informing all persons concerned of the effect of the order.
(7) Any person who contravenes a prohibition imposed by an order under this section
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shall be guilty of an offence and shall, on conviction on indictment or on summary conviction, be liable to a fine:
Provided that an offence under this section shall not be punishable on summary conviction by a fine exceeding one hundred pounds.
(8) Section 113(2)(a) of this Act shall have effect in relation to any offence under this section as if, after the word 'by', there were inserted the words 'the Minister, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, a river board or'.
(9) The power to vary orders under this section shall not be exercisable so as to extend the period for which a prohibition imposed by such an order has effect beyond the end of the period of six months beginning with the date on which that prohibition came into operation.
(10) In this section any reference to the abstraction of water for the purpose of spray irrigation is a reference to the abstraction thereof either for that purpose or for purposes which include that purpose, and 'area' means any river board area or river authority area.")
Clause 124, page 110, line 38, after ("29"), insert ("section (Provisions supplementary to sections 38 to 40) and section 52(3)")
Clause 124, page 110, line 40, leave out from ("subsection") to end of line 43 and insert— ("and—

(a) section 48(2) of this Act shall not apply to any direction given in consequence of an appeal against the decision on such an application, and

(b) section (Application by owner of fishing rights for revocation or variation of licence) of this Act shall not apply to any licence granted in pursuance of such an application")

After Clause 124, insert the following new clause—
Ecclesiastical property
(".—(1) The provisions of this subsection shall have effect with respect to licences under this Act and with respect to applications for such licences, that is to say—

(a) an application for such a licence, where the relevant land is land belonging to a benefice which is for the time being vacant, may be made by the Church Commissioners;

(b) where the relevant land belongs to a benefice, any such licence shall provide that (notwithstanding anything in section 31(4) or section 37(1) of this Act) whoever is for the time being the incumbent of the benefice shall be the holder of the licence, and, where the licence so provides, section 30(4) of this Act shall not apply;

(c) where the last preceding paragraph applies, any reference in Part IV of this Act to the applicant for a licence shall, in relation to any time when the benefice in question is vacant, be construed as a reference to the Church Commissioners, and, in relation to any time when there is an incumbent of the benefice, shall be construed as a reference to that incumbent;

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(d) where a licence includes such a provision as is mentioned in paragraph (b) of this subsection, any reference in this Act, or in any charging scheme or agreement made thereunder, to the holder of the licence shall, in relation to any time when the benefice in question is vacant, be construed as a reference to the Church Commissioners;

(e) for the purposes of sections 33 and 35 of this Act, water abstracted by a former incumbent of a benefice shall be treated as having been abstracted by the person who is for the time being the incumbent thereof, or, if the benefice is vacant, by the Church Commissioners.

(2) Where the fee simple in any ecclesiastical property is in abeyance, it shall, for the purposes of the exercise of any powers of compulsory acquisition conferred by or under this Act, be treated as being vested in the Church Commissioners, and any notice to treat shall be served accordingly.
(3) Any sums agreed upon or awarded for the acquisition, in the exercise of any such powers, of the fee simple in land which is ecclesiastical property, or to be paid by way of compensation for damage sustained by reason of severance or injury affecting such land (being severance or injury arising from an acquisition in the exercise of any such powers), shall, instead of being paid as provided by the Lands Clauses Acts, be paid to the Church Commissioners.
(4) Any compensation falling to be paid under this Act in respect of damage to land which is ecclesiastical property shall, to the extent to which it is payable to the owner of the fee simple in the land, be paid (where the fee simple is vested in any person other than the Church Commissioners) to them, instead of to that person; and any compensation falling to be paid under this Act in respect of depreciation of the value of the fee simple in land which is ecclesiastical property shall (where the fee simple is vested in a person other than the Church Commissioners) be paid to them instead of to the person in whom the fee simple is vested.
(5) Any sums paid under subsection (3) of subsection (4) of this section to the Church Commissioners with reference to any land shall, if the land is not consecrated, be applied by them for the purposes for which the proceeds of a sale by agreement of the fee simple in the land would be applicable under any enactment or Measure authorising such a sale or disposing of the proceeds of such a sale, and, if the land is consecrated, be applied by them in such manner as they may determine.
(6) Where in pursuance of the provisions of Part V of this Act as modified by subsection (1)(d) of this section, or in pursuance of a charging scheme or agreement as so modified, the Church Commissioners are required to pay any fee or other charge in respect of a licence, then if any moneys then are or subsequently become payable by the Commissioners to the incumbent of the benefice in question, the Commissioners shall be entitled to retain out of those moneys an amount not exceeding the amount of that charge.
(7) Where under any provision of this Act a document is required to be served on an
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owner of land, and the land is ecclesiastical property, a copy of the document shall be served on the Church Commissioners:
Provided that (without prejudice to subsection (2) of this section) this subsection shall not apply where the requirement is imposed by the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act 1946 as applied by any provision of this Act.
(8) In this section 'benefice' means an ecclesiastical benefice of the Church of England, 'ecclesiastical property' means land belonging to a benefice, or being or forming part of a church subject to the jurisdiction of the bishop of any diocese of the Church of England or the site of a church so subject, or being or forming part of a burial ground so subject, and 'the relevant land', in relation to a licence under this Act or an application for such a licence, means the land on which water abstracted in pursuance of the licence is to be, or is proposed to be, used, or, in the case of a licence under section 36 of this Act or an application for such a licence, the land on which any part of the impounding works is to be, or is proposed to be, constructed or (in relation to an alteration of impounding works) the land on which any part of those works is situated or is to be, or is proposed to be, situated.")
Clause 126, page 112, line 38, leave out paragraph (a).
Clause 126, page 113, line 2, leave out ("or section 10")
Clause 126, page 113, line 5, at end insert—
("(b) an order under section 10 of this Act which varies a previous order under that section in such a way that the number of members (excluding additional members) of a river authority will exceed thirty-one, but does not alter any river authority area or designate any new area, or")
Clause 126, page 113, line 12, leave out ("paragraph (a) or")
Clause 127, page 114, line 15, at end insert—
("'financial year' means a period of twelve months ending with the 31st March.")
Clause 127, page 114, line 28, leave out ("either") and insert ("any")
Clause 127, page 114, line 34, after ("reservoir"), insert ("or dock")
Clause 127, page 114, line 34, leave out ("or reservoir") and insert ("reservoir or dock")
Clause 127, page 114, line 36, at end insert ("and
(c) so much of any channel, creek, bay, estuary or arm of the sea as does not fall within the preceding paragraphs and is within any of the river authority areas")
Clause 127, page 115, line 17, at end insert—
("'mortgage' includes any charge or lien on any property for securing money or money's worth, and 'mortgagee' shall be construed accordingly.")
Clause 127, page 117, line 41, at end insert—
("(6) Any reference in this Act to the doing of anything in pursuance of a licence under this Act is a reference to its being done—

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(a) by the holder of such a licence, or

(b) by a person acting as a servant or agent of, or otherwise under the authority of, the holder of such a licence,

at a time when that licence is in force and in circumstances such that, if no such licence were in force, the doing of that thing would contravene a restriction imposed by section 23 or section 36 of this Act.
(7) For the purposes of this Act land shall be taken to be contiguous to an inland water notwithstanding that the land is separated from it by a towpath or by any other land used, or acquired for use, in connection with the navigation of the inland water, if that other land does not comprise any building or works other than a lock, pier, wharf, landing-stage or similar works.")
Clause 128, page 118, line 35, at end insert—
("(3) The repeal by virtue of this section of section 5 of the River Boards Act 1948 shall not affect any determination under subsection (2) of that section made by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food before the second appointed day; and any such determination in force immediately before that day with respect to the area of a river board shall, until superseded by any subsequent determination under section 9(2) of this Act, have effect as from that day as a determination by that Minister under the said section 9(2) with respect to the area of the river authority to whom, by virtue of section 5 of this Act, the functions of that river board relating to fisheries are transferred.")
Clause 129, page 119, line 35, leave out subsection (4).
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, these Amendments, Nos. 163 to 203, are all in Part X, which is a fairly large Part of the Bill dealing with miscellaneous provisions. Amendment No. 163 attempts to preserve public rights of access and provides that account shall be taken of the effect of any works on public rights of access. Amendments Nos. 164 to 166 are of great interest to statutory undertakers in that they add bulk supplies to the list of duties which these undertakers must carry out and require special recognition and protection—that is to say, the status of either undertakers supplying in bulk or undertakers receiving supplies in bulk must be recognised.
Amendment No. 186 provides for consultation with the appropriate authorities in Scotland in those river authority areas adjoining the Scottish authorities. Amendment No. 187 allows for temporary restrictions on spray irrigation due to excessive shortage of rain. That will be prior to the second appointed day and during the initial period of three months thereafter, before the minimum acceptable flows have been agreed. Amendment
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No. 190 is a now clause dealing with the complicated issue of ecclesiastical property and the ownership of it. It has been agreed in consultation with the Church Commission.
Finally, in this Part, Amendments Nos. 191 to 194 inclusive are paving Amendments to the Amendments made to Schedule 4, dealing with orders revising river authority areas and boundaries. My right honourable friend gave an undertaking in Committee in another place that he would make this change from Affirmative or Negative Resolution of either House to the Special Parliamentary Procedure where an objection is made and not withdrawn. These Amendments now provide that there shall be Special Parliamentary Procedures in these circumstances where river authority areas are to be changed. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Hastings.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Schedule 1, page 121, leave out lines 7 to 9 and insert—

("

The Lancashire River Authority.

The Lancashire River Board area.

The Cumberland River Authority.

The Cumberland River Board area.

")

After Schedule 1, insert the following new Schedule—

SEAWARD BOUNDARIES OF RIVER AUTHORITY AREAS
1.—(1) Except as otherwise provided by this Schedule, the seaward boundary of a river authority area shall be low-water mark on the coast of the area.
(2) In this Schedule 'low-water mark' means low-water mark of ordinary spring tides.
2.—(1) Subject to any order made under this Schedule, where a river, stream or other waiter-course, whether natural or artificial and whether tidal or not; or any creek in so far as it does not form part of such a watercourse, discharges into the sea, the whole of the mouth of the watercourse within a line from low-water mark at the seaward extremity of one hank to low-water mark at the seaward extremity of the other bank, or the whole of the creek within such a line, as the case may be, shall form part of a river authority area, and, if both banks are in the same river authority area, shall form part of that river authority area.
(2) In this paragraph 'the sea' includes any bay, estuary or arm of the sea.
3. Where the entrance to a dock is on the coast, the whole of the dock shall form part of a river authority area, and, if both sides of the dock are in the same river authority area, shall form part of that river authority area.
4. Where paragraph 2 or paragraph 3 of this Schedule applies, but the banks of the water-course or creek or the sides of the dock, as the case may be, are in different river authority areas, the Minister may by order determine in which river authority area any part of the watercourse, creek or dock is to be comprised.
5.—(1) Without prejudice to the last preceding paragraph, the Minister may by order designate any tidal waters and direct that those waters, in so far as they are below low-water mark,—

(a) shall be included in a river authority area specified in the order, or

(b) shall be excluded from a river authority area so specified or (if the order so provides) shall be excluded from all the river authority areas.

(2) Any tidal waters which, by virtue of an order under this paragraph, are included in a river authority area shall by virtue of the order be excluded from any other river authority area, if apart from the order they would form part of that other area.
(3) Any tidal waters designated by an order under this paragraph shall be so designated by reference to a map; and where by any such order it is proposed to designate any tidal waters for the purpose only of excluding them from a river authority area, or from all river authority areas, those waters may, if the Minister considers it appropriate to do so, be designated as being all tidal waters, which, in so far as they are below low-water mark, lie to seaward of a line specified in the order by reference to a map.
6. Before making an order under this Schedule, the Minister shall prepare a draft order, and shall cause a notice to be published—

(a) stating the general effect of the order;

(b) specifying the places where copies of the draft order and of any map to which it refers may be inspected by any person free of charge at all reasonable times during the period of twenty-eight days beginning with the date on which the notice is first published in a newspaper other than the London Gazette; and

(c) stating that any person may within that period, by notice in writing to the Minister, object to the making of the order.

7.—(1) The places to be specified in a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (b) of the last preceding paragraph are—

(a) the principal office of every river board whose area includes any part of the relevant coast, and

(b) the office of every county or county borough council whose area includes any part of the relevant coast.

(2) In this paragraph 'the relevant coast'—

(a) in relation to an order under paragraph 4 of this Schedule, means the coast which comprises the part of the river, stream or other watercourse, or the creek or dock, to which the order relates, and

(b) in relation to an order under paragraph 5 of this Schedule, means the coast adjoining the tidal waters designated in the draft order.

8. A notice under paragraph 6 of this Schedule shall be published in the London Gazette and at least once in each of two successive weeks in one or more newspapers (other than the London Gazette) circulating in the area of each river board whose principal office is required to be specified in the notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (b) of that paragraph.
9. If, before the end of the period of twenty-eight days referred to in paragraph 6(b) of this Schedule, notice in writing of an objection is received by the Minister, and the objection is not withdrawn, the Minister, before making the order, shall afford to the objector an opportunity of appearing before, and being heard by, a person appointed by the Minister for the purpose.
10. Subject to the last preceding paragraph, the Minister may make the order either in the form of the draft or in that form as altered in such manner as he may think fit:
Provided that the order shall not be made so as to include in a river authority area any tidal waters which would have been outside all the river authority areas if the order had been made in the form of the draft order.
11. Where an order is made under this Schedule, the Minister shall cause a notice to be published—

(a) stating that the order has been made, either in the form of the draft order or with alterations specified in the notice, as the case may be, and

(b) specifying the places where copies of the order and of any map to which it refers may be inspected by any person free of charge at all reasonable times during the period mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of the next following paragraph.

12.—(1) The period referred to in sub-paragraph (b) of the last preceding paragraph is the period beginning with the date on which the notice is first published in a newspaper other than the London Gazette and ending with the earliest date by which the Ministers have sent to each of the river authorities concerned a map as required by section 11(1) of this Act.
(2) The places to be specified in a notice under the last preceding paragraph in the case of an order shall be the places specified in the notice published in relation to the draft of that order in accordance with paragraph 6 of this Schedule.
(3) A notice under the last preceding paragraph shall be published in the London Gazette and at least once in each of two successive weeks in one or more newspapers (other than the London Gazette) circulating in the area of

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each river board whose principal office is included among the places to be specified as mentioned in the last preceding subparagraph.
(4) In this paragraph 'river authority concerned' means a river authority established under section 3 of this Act whose area includes any part of the relevant coast (as defined by paragraph 7(2) of this Schedule).
13.—(1) If any person desires to question the validity of an order under this Schedule on the grounds that it is not within the powers of this Act, or that any requirements of this Act have not been complied with in relation to the order, he may, within six weeks after the first publication of the notice required by paragraph 11 of this Schedule, make an application for the purpose to the High Court; and if any such application is duly made, the court, if satisfied that the order is not within the powers of this Act or that the interests of the applicant have been substantially prejudiced by a failure to comply with any of the requirements of this Act in relation to the order, may quash the order either generally or in so far as it affects the applicant.
(2) Except as provided by the preceding subparagraph, the validity of an order under this Schedule shall not, either before or after the order has been made, be questioned in any legal proceedings whatsoever.
14. Nothing in this Schedule or in any order made thereunder shall affect the extent of a river authority area for the purposes of the enactments relating to land drainage, fisheries or river pollution, or for the purposes of any order, scheme, regulation, award or byelaw made by virtue of any such enactment.")
Schedule 2, page 121, line 17, leave out from ("authority") to ("and") in line 20 and insert ("in relation to which the area of that river board is specified, or is one of those specified, in the third column of Schedule 1 to this Act")
Schedule 3, page 127, line 18, leave out from first ("or") to second ("of") in line 19 and insert ("by any defect in the appointment, or the qualification for appointment, of any person as a member, or as chairman or vice-chairman")
Clause 129, page 128, line 28, at end insert—
"(4) Without prejudice to the proviso to subsection (1) of the said section 76 (which limits the disabilities imposed by that section), that section shall not by virtue of this paragraph apply—

(a) to any interest which a member of a river authority or committee may have in the preparation or revision of a charging scheme or in the raising of any drainage rates or the levying of any general or special drainage charges, or

(b) to any interest in any other matter which such a member may have as the holder of, or as an applicant or prospective applicant for, a licence under this Act, where it is an interest which he has in common with all other holders of, or applicants or prospective applicants for, such licences, or in common with all other persons belonging
1102
to a class of such holders, applicants or prospective applicants.")

Page 130, line 30, leave out ("or officers")
Page 130, line 33, after second ("authorities,") insert ("or other organisation to whose activities the river authority are empowered by this Schedule to contribute")
Page 130, line 36, after ("in") insert ("contributing towards the cost, or")
Page 130, line 40, leave out ("or officers")
Page 130, line 44, leave out from second ("of") to end of line 47 and insert—

("(i) distinguished persons residing in the area of the river authority, or visiting that area or any works outside that area operated by the river authority, or

(ii) persons representative of, or connected with, other river authorities or similar services, whether inside or outside

the United Kingdom, or in the supply of information to any such persons,
(e) any reasonable expenses incurred in connection with ceremonies connected with the performance by the river authority of any of their functions.")
Page 131, line 2, after ("incurred") insert ("by a member of the authority")
Page 131,line 3, leave out from ("not") to ("exceed") in line 4.
Schedule 4, page 132, line 39, leave out from ("affected") to end of line 48 and insert—
("2. The Ministers shall also, before making any such order, cause copies of the notice referred to in the preceding paragraph to be served as follows, that is to say—

(a) in the case of an order in which it is proposed to designate a new river authority area or to alter one or more river authority areas, copies of the notice shall be served on any river authority whose area is proposed to be altered, on every local authority whose area is wholly or partly included in any relevant area, and on every other authority known by the Ministers to be exercising within any relevant area functions corresponding to the new functions of river authorities, or functions with respect to land drainage, fisheries, river pollution, navigation or harbours;

(b) in the case of an order by which it is proposed to vary an order previously made under section 10 of this Act, but without designating any new river authority area and without altering any river authority area, copies of the notice shall be served on the river authority to whom the order will relate, on every local authority whose area is wholly or partly included in the area of that river authority, and on every other authority known to the Ministers to be exercising within that river authority area functions with respect to land drainage, navigation or harbours.

In sub-paragraph (a) of this paragraph 'any relevant area ', in relation to an order, means any river authority area which is proposed to be altered by the order and any area which is

1103
not for the time being comprised in a river authority area but is proposed to be comprised in a river authority area (whether a new river authority area or not) by virtue of the order.")
Schedule 4, page 133, line 6, at end insert—
("3.—(1) Where sub-paragraph (a) of paragraph 2 of this Schedule applies, and an objection has been duly made by any body on whom notice is required to be served under that sub-paragraph and has not been withdrawn, then if the order is made the Ministers shall serve notice of the making of the order on every such body who has duly made an objection which has not been withdrawn.
(2) Where a notice is required to be served under the preceding sub-paragraph, the order shall not have effect before the expiry of a period of twenty-eight days from the date of service of that notice; and if within that period any such body gives notice to either of the Ministers objecting to the order, and the objection is not withdrawn, the order shall be subject to special parliamentary procedure.")
Schedule 4, page 133, line 7, leave out ("such an order") and insert ("an order under section 10 of this Act")
Schedule 4, page 133, line 11, at end insert—
("Provided that, in the case of an order to which sub-paragraph (1) of the last preceding paragraph applies, the notice shall not be published until the expiry of the period of twenty-eight days referred to in sub-paragraph (2) of that paragraph, and shall state whether or not the order is to be subject to special parliamentary procedure.")
Schedule 4, page 133, line 12, at beginning insert ("Subject to the next following subparagraph")
Schedule 4, page 133, line 22, at end insert—
("(2) The preceding sub-paragraph shall not apply to any order which is confirmed by Act of Parliament under section 6 of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act 1945, and shall have effect in relation to any other order which is subject to special parliamentary procedure by virtue of the provisions of this Schedule as if, for the reference to the first publication of the notice required by the last preceding paragraph, there were substituted a reference to the date on which the order becomes operative under the said Act of 1945.")
Schedule 4, page 133,page 133, line 23, leave out ("the preceding sub-paragraph") and insert ("sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph")
Schedule 4, page 133, line 24, after ("not") insert ("either before or after the order has been made")
Schedule 6, page 134, line 42, after ("to") insert ("any")
Schedule 6, page 134, line 45, leave out ("and") and insert—

("(f) any navigation authority, harbour authority or conservancy authority having functions in relation to any other inland
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water, where it appears to the river authority that changes in the flow of an inland water to which the draft statement relates may affect the flow of that other inland water, or, if that other inland water is a tidal water and there is no such navigation authority, harbour authority or conservancy authority, the Minister of Transport;

(g) every person who has given notice to the river authority requesting them to notify him of action taken in connection with the determination of a minimum acceptable flow for an inland water to which the draft statement relates, and, if the river authority have required him to pay a reasonable charge for being so notified, has paid that charge; and")

Schedule 6, page 135, line 20, after ("paragraph") insert ("notice in writing of")
Schedule 6, page 136, line 17, after ("paragraph") insert ("notice in writing of")
Schedule 6, page 137, line 1, after ("in") insert ("paragraph 4(g) and")
Schedule 6, page 138, line 2, leave out from ("authority") to ("as") in line 4 and insert ("required by this Act to be consulted before the preparation of the draft statement or the submission of the proposals")
Schedule 6, page 138, line 5, after ("if") insert ("either—
(i)")
Schedule 6, page 138, line 9, leave out from beginning to ("or") in line 10 and insert ("inland water to which the draft statement relates or the proposals relate, as the case may be")
Schedule 6, page 138, line 11, at end insert
("or (ii) in accordance with either of those paragraphs as so applied, an objection is received by the Minister from an association or person claiming to represent a substantial fishery interest which is affected by the statement or the proposals, as the case may be, and it is certified to the Minister by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food that the association or person in question appears to the last-mentioned Minister to represent such an interest")
Schedule 7, page 139, line 48, after ("paragraph") insert ("notice in writing of")
Schedule 7, page 140, line 18, at end insert ("and subsections (5) to (7) of section 45 of this Act shall have effect in relation to compensation payable by virtue of this paragraph as they have effect in relation to compensation payable under that section")
Schedule 9, page 144, line 41, after ("to") insert ("either of")
Schedule 9, page 145, line 29, after ("not") insert ("either before or after the order has been made")
Schedule 9, page 145, line 29, leave out line 45 and insert ("(and, in the case of anything falling to be done by the Ministers, those Ministers acting jointly) and paragraph 4(2) of this Schedule shall have effect as if for the words of the Ministers' there were substituted the words 'any of the Ministers'")
After Schedule 9, insert the following new Schedule—

TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS RELATING TO PRECEPTS AND BORROWING POWERS OF RIVER AUTHORITIES

  PART I
  Precepts
  1.—(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in section 3(4)(b) of this Act, the duty imposed on river authorities by section 82(3) of this Act shall apply in relation to the financial year beginning on the second appointed day as it applies in relation to any subsequent financial year; and the power of river authorities to issue precepts under section 82(4) of this Act shall be exercisable accordingly before the second appointed day.
  (2) In relation to the financial year beginning on the second appointed day, section 82 of this Act shall have effect as if, for the purposes of paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (1). and subsection (2), of that section, that financial year included the period beginning on the first appointed day and ending immediately before the second appointed day.
  2. Where by virtue of paragraph 1(2) of this Schedule the aggregate amount required to be raised by precept by a river authority for the financial year beginning on the second appointed day includes expenditure incurred before that day, and the river authority issue precepts for that year under section 82 of this Act, then—

  (a) for the purposes of this paragraph there shall be ascertained what the aggregate amount for which precepts are so issued to the council of each county or county borough would have been if no expenditure incurred before the second appointed day had been so included, and every estimate and apportionment made under that section in respect of that financial year had been reduced accordingly, and

  (b) if, in the case of any such council, precepts of the aggregate amount ascertained under the preceding sub-paragraph would not have exceeded the limit imposed by subsection (6) of that section (or, as the case may be, the limit imposed by subsection (6) as modified by subsection (7) of that section), the aggregate amount of the precepts actually issued to that council for that financial year shall be treated as not exceeding that limit.

  3. The provisions which may be included in an order under section 10 of this Act shall (without prejudice to the generality of subsection (3) of that section or, where applicable, of section 120(4) of this Act) be taken to include provisions modifying section 82 of this Act in its application to any river authority established by the order or in its application to any river authority whose area is altered by the order.

PART II
Borrowing powers
4.—(1) The power of river authorities under section 87(1) of this Act to borrow temporarily, by way of overdraft or otherwise, such sums as they require for the purpose of defraying expenses pending the receipt of revenues receivable by them shall, notwithstanding anything
1106
contained in section 3(4)(b) of this Act, be exercisable during the period beginning on the first appointed day and ending immediately before the second appointed day.
(2) In relation to the exercise of that power during that period, paragraph (a) of section 87(1) of this Act shall apply as if, for the words from 'period of account' to the end of that paragraph, there were substituted the words 'financial year beginning on the second appointed day'.")
Schedule 11, page 147, line 32, at end insert—
("The Reservoirs (Safety Provisions) Act 1930
2. In section 10(1), at the end of the definition of 'undertakers' there shall be added the words or, in the case of a reservoir managed and operated by a river authority but not owned or leased by them, that river authority'.")
Schedule 11, page 147, line 46, at end insert—
("5. In Schedule 2, in paragraph 5, the following sub-paragraphs shall be substituted for sub-paragraph (3):—
'(3) The Minister may by order direct that all or any of the provisions of the Water Resources Act 1963 specified in the next following sub-paragraph (being supplementary provisions as to the powers and procedure of river authorities and similar matters) shall apply for the purpose of the functions under this Act of the rivers authority for any excluded area as if that authority were a river authority and their area a river authority area, subject to such modifications as may be specified in the order.
(3A) The said provisions are sections 103 and 104, sections 106 to 108, section 15, subparagraphs (2) and (3) of paragraph 18, and paragraph 19, of Schedule 3, and Schedule 10.';
and, in sub-paragraph (4) of that paragraph, for the words 'River Boards Act 1948' there shall be substituted the words 'Water Resources Act 1963 ', for the words the last foregoing sub-paragraph' there shall be substituted the words 'sub-paragraph (3) of this paragraph' and for the words 'said Act of 1948', in both places where they occur, there shall be substituted the words said Act of 1963'.")
Schedule 11, page 148, line 25, leave out ("and 72") and insert ("72 and (Emergency measures in case of pollution of waters)")
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, these Amendments, Nos. 204 to 241, are all in the Schedules. I think that there is only one that I need mention, because the others of any importance have already been mentioned in connection with Amendments which I have already moved and which have been accepted. This Amendment is No. 204, which deals with the Lancashire and Cumberland River Authorities. Your Lordships will remember that we had a great deal of

1107
argument on this problem all through the time the Bill was in your Lordships' House. Then it went to another place and the arguments were pressed even more strongly than they had been here. As noble Lords are well aware, the wellbeing of the Lake District is a matter of passionate concern, not only in the Northern counties, but nationally, and even outside this country, because it is such a well-known feature and such an attraction to tourists. Her Majesty's Government do not believe that the case has been answered on its merits, particularly on the technical and managerial issues, and we do not believe our arguments have been in any way impaired; but, in the last resort, the matter remains one of opinion as to what is best for the welfare of the district.
It happened that the Government's view on this proposal in the Bill, that a wider unit of management in the North West would afford the better protection for the beauties we all wish to preserve because it would automatically bring into consideration a wide range of potential sources of water alternative to the lakes and valleys of the Lake District itself, was not accepted. But the Government have felt it right, in this unique case, to let what they believe to be the proper technical solution fall for the time being before this widespread and popular sentiment against amalgamation.
The noble Lord, Lord Henley, will be very pleased about this, and those who have supported him will certainly congratulate him on the result of his charming and obstinate battle. I would just point out that we have not accepted the Amendment which was moved by the noble Lord and by his colleagues in another place, because that would have divided up an existing river board area; and if it had been done in the way they wanted we felt it would have thrown a much heavier financial burden on the Cumberland River Board Authority than they perhaps appreciated. Secondly, it would result in only one river authority area being in the Bill which would have been made up out of a division of an existing area. All the others are amalgamations; there are no divisions or split river boards. That would have meant from the technical, administrative, financial, and staff points of view a major Amendment of the Bill in a great many
1108
parts, which we felt was something that could not be undertaken and was inadvisable. Therefore we have preferred to leave these two areas as they are. The two new river authorities for Lancashire and Cumberland will now be the Lancashire and Cumberland River Board Areas, but the Government hope that in due course they will find they would rather be together and that we were right after all. I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That the House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Hastings.)
4.23 p.m.
LORD HENLEY: My Lords, I am especially grateful to the Government for having given way on this matter, because I very much sympathise with their contention that the case is a difficult one to make on its merits. When I argued the case on the Committee stage, and when I moved another Amendment on the Report stage, I said to the noble Lord who was in charge of the Bill that I thought it was a toss up either way, and whichever way one looked at the argument one could make out a strong case. So I think it is very much to the credit of the Government that, while being still firmly convinced that their own arguments are best, they have given way. I think they felt it should be clear to the public that they have strongly in mind here the amenity question, and that is why they have given way. They still believe that their solution is the better one, but they feel that it will not appear to be so in the public eye if they do not give way on this. In my turn, I hope that we on the Cumberland and Lancashire River Board will really be able to "make a go" of this, so that the suggestion put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, that we may have doubts about it, will not prove to be true.
I am sorry that the Government did not accept my Amendment as a whole, because it seemed to me that taking the whole of these National Parks into one area would have been a better solution. I am not sure that I agree with the noble Lord that we did not appreciate the financial burden that we might be taking on. I argued that case on the Report stage, and I think I made as much of it as the Government made on their side.

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I still think that this particular solution, of having the whole of the National Parks in this one area, would have been the better one. Nevertheless, what the Government have given us is a valuable concession, and when I thank them very much I am sure I do so on behalf of all lovers of the Lake District. Although when the Bill went through your Lordships' House in Committee the Government made many invaluable concessions on amenity interests and, in particular, with regard to Clause 93, nevertheless we still felt that if we were going to safeguard this area we must have the control in our own hands. It is with great gratitude that I thank the noble Lord, who I am sure has played a considerable part in bringing this about.
LORD FORSTER OF HARRABY: My Lords, I should like to join the noble Lord, Lord Henley, in expressing gratitude to the Government for the inclusion of this Amendment. It does not go as far as that for which we asked on the Committee stage and the Report stage, but it is a great improvement on the original proposal.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, at this stage of the Bill it is a little unfortunate, and perhaps a little naughty, to introduce discord, but I am sorry that this Amendment is going forward. I think the Minister's original proposals were correct. Now the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, has said that, the case having not been made out on merit, the Government have let their heart rule their head and given way to something which they think is inferior to their original proposal. I think that is unfortunate. I am all in favour of amenity and I think it should be encouraged, but some of those associated with amenity go a little far and wide.
At this stage of the Bill perhaps I may do a little reminiscing. Reference was made to the pleasures of the Lake District. When the late Lord Dalton was Minister of Town and Country Planning there was an outcry against the Electricity Board's action in putting some electricity wires across part of the area. He asked me to go down to look into it and see what the trouble was about. To cut a long story short, as I was walking down one lane with a group of officials from the local authorities an old fellow was looking
1110
over the garden gate of his cottage, and I said to him: "They tell me you don't want electricity along here." He said, "It's them as come 'ere twice a year who don't want it. We live 'ere, and we want it." I am afraid that sometimes amenity tends to forget the essential purposes for which we have some of these gifts. We cannot do anything at this stage of the Bill, but I am sorry about it.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LOCH TURRET WATER BOARD (HYDRO-ELECTRIC DEVELOPMENT) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936) deemed to have been read 2a, and reported from the Committee.
LAND COMPENSATION (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
WILLS BILL
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (FINANCIAL PROVISIONS) BILL
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
4.30 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Consideration of Commons Amendments read.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD CRAIGTON): My Lords, in rising to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered, I trust that it will be for the greater convenience of your Lordships if I say a few words about the Bill. The majority of the Amendments made in another place are of a minor and consequential nature, but there are a few to which I should refer. Amendment No. 1 meets a point made by the noble Lord, Lord

1111
Hughes, in now requiring sheriffs and stipendiary magistrates to state their reasons for imposing detention in certain circumstances. The group of four Amendments, Nos. 4, 6, 7 and 10, are all designed to minimise, so far as possible, the number of persons in a detention centre who, for one reason or another, are not suitable for or subject to the full centre régime.
The new clause at Amendment No. 15 gives effect to the advice of the S.A.C.T.O. Report that the After-Care Council should become an advisory body, and that after care should become a direct responsibility of the Secretary of State. Amendment No. 16 reduces from twelve to six months the period of imprisonment on summary conviction in certain circumstances. This meets the doubts expressed on this point by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Guest, on Second Reading. Amendment No. 17 provides that a previously convicted person, of any age, who is again convicted has the provisions of the First Offenders (Scotland) Act applied to him if more than ten years has elapsed since his previous conviction or release from detention.
My Lords, these are the major Amendments. With your Lordships' approval, I will later move all the Amendments en bloc, and if noble Lords have any question to ask about any specific Amendment, I will do my best to answer it. I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[The references are to Bill [52] as first printed for the House of Commons.]
Clause 1, page 2, line 9, leave out from ("jurisdiction") to ("impose") in line 10
Clause 2, page 2, line 43, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
("(2) In any enactment—

(a) any reference to a sentence of imprisonment as including a reference to a sentence of any other form of detention shall be construed as including a reference to a sentence of detention in a young offenders institution; and

(b) any reference to imprisonment as including any other form of detention shall be construed as including a reference to detention in a young offenders institution.")

Clause 7, page 4, line 21, leave out ("or the antecedents")
Clause 7, page 4,line 22, at end insert—
("(3) Where it appears to the Secretary of State that a person detained in a detention centre is unfit for such detention by reason of his health, without prejudice to any other powers he may have in the matter, he may, after consultation where practicable with the judge by whom or the presiding chairman of the court by which the sentence was passed, release that person; and he shall then be required to be under supervision in accordance with section 12(1) of this Act.")
Clause 8, page 4, line 25, leave out from beginning to ("the") in line 27
Clause 9, page 5, line 4, leave out Clause 9
Clause 10, page 6, line 12, at end, insert—
("(4) The powers conferred upon the Secretary of State by the last foregoing subsection may be exercised in the case of a person who has not attained the age of seventeen years if the Secretary of State is satisfied, having regard to the character and development of the person, that it is appropriate that he should be detained in a young offenders institution.")
Clause 12, page 7, line 15, leave out ("society or")
Clause 12, page 7,line 33, at beginning, insert—
("Subject to the provisions of the next following subsection")
Clause 12, page 7, line 43, at end, insert—
("(3) The power conferred upon the Secretary of State by the last foregoing subsection to recall an offender to a young offenders institution may be exercised in the case of a person who has not attained the age of seventeen years if the Secretary of State is satisfied, having regard to the character and development of the person, that it is appropriate that he should be detained in a young offenders institution.")
Clause 13, page 8, line 9, leave out ("society or")
Clause 15, page 9, leave out lines 10 to 18 and insert—
("(2) Subject to the provisions of subsection (4) thereof, this section applies—

(a) to any person serving a sentence of imprisonment for a term of three years or more;

(b) to any person serving a sentence of imprisonment for a term of not less than six months, but less than three years, who is under the age of twenty-six years at the commencement of the sentence.")

Clause 13, page 8,line 22, leave out ("a lower limit of")
Clause 13, page 8,line 24, leave out from beginning to first word ("in") in line 27 and insert—
("(4) This section shall not apply to persons serving a sentence of imprisonment commencing before such date as may be prescribed by order of the Secretary of State

1113
under this subsection; and any such order may prescribe different dates in respect of sentences described in paragraphs (a) and (b) respectively of subsection (2) of this section, and,")
After Clause 15, insert the following new clause—
Termination of supervisory functions of After Care Council
(".—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the powers of the Secretary of State under the Prisons (Scotland) Act 1952 shall include power to make such arrangements as appear to him to be necessary for the supervision of offenders released from institutions provided under that Act.
(2) The Secretary of State may no longer place offenders under the supervision of the After Care Council in pursuance of section 18(2) of the Prisons (Scotland) Act 1952, and accordingly for that subsection there shall be substituted the following subsection:—
'(2) It shall be the duty of the After Care Council to advise the Secretary of State on any question relating to the aftercare of offenders which he may refer to them, and to bring to his attention any matter relating to after-care of which in their opinion he ought to be apprised '.")
Leave out Clause 16 and insert the following new clause—
Amendment of s. 8 of the Summary Jurisdiction (Scotland) Act 1954
(". In section 8 of the Summary Jurisdiction (Scotland) Act 1954 (which provides in certain cases where the person convicted has two previous convictions for a maximum sentence of six months imprisonment), for paragraphs (a) and (b) there shall be substituted the following paragraphs:—

'(a) a second or subsequent offence inferring dishonest appropriation of property, or attempt thereat, or

(b) a second or subsequent offence inferring personal violence'.")

Clause 17, page 10, line 5, at end insert—
("(2) For the purpose of determining whether a person is a first offender within the meaning of that Act, a previous conviction shall be disregarded after the expiration of a period of ten years from the date of that conviction, being a period exclusive of any period spent by him in custody under sentence in respect of the conviction.")
Clause 22, page 12, line 39, leave out ("If")
Clause 22, page 12, line 41, leave out from ("State") to ("may") in line 3 on page 13
Clause 23, page 13, line 36, leave out ("two hundred and fifty") and insert ("one hundred and fifty")
Clause 25, page 16, line 30, leave out ("undesirable or")
Clause 28, page 18, line 15, leave out ("less than") and insert ("not exceeding")
Clause 22, page 12, line 17, leave out ("One year or over") and insert ("Over one year")
Leave out Clause 32
After Clause 40, insert the following new clause—
Service in Scotland of documents under the Magistrates' Courts Act 1957.
(". Nothing in section 6(3) (extent) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1957 or in the Summary Jurisdiction (Process) Act 1881 shall be construed as precluding the service in Scotland with a summons which is so served under the said Act of 1881 of any such notice or statement as is mentioned in subsection (1) of section 1 of the said Act of 1957 (plea of guilty in absence of accused).")
Clause 45, page 23, line 27, leave out ("fifty") and insert ("twenty-five")
After Clause 46, insert the following new clause—
Deferred sentence
(". For the removal of doubt it is hereby declared that it is competent for any Scottish court to defer sentence after conviction for a period and on such conditions as the court may determine.")
Clause 48, page 23, line 46, leave out ("eighteen") and insert ("seventeen")
Clause 48, page 24, line 3, leave out ("eighteen") and insert ("seventeen")
After Clause 48, insert the following new clause—
General provisions as to orders.
(".—(1) Any power of the Secretary of State to make orders under this Act (other than orders made under section 12, section 13(1) or (3) or section 22) shall be exercisable by statutory instrument.
(2) A statutory instrument containing an order under section 13(2) or section 15 of this Act shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.")
Clause 49, page 24, line 21, at end insert—
("(3) For the purposes of any reference in this Act to a term of imprisonment or to a term of detention in a young offenders institution, consecutive terms and terms which are wholly or partly concurrent shall be treated as a single term.")
Clause 51, page 25, line 10, at end insert ("section (Service in Scotland of documents under Magistrates' Courts Act 1957)").
Clause 54, page 25, line 46, leave out subsection (2).
Schedule 1, page 26, line 10, leave out ("the supervision of the Society") and insert ("supervision")
Schedule 1, page 26, line 23, leave out from first ("person") to ("who") in line 24.
Schedule 1, page 26, line 30, leave out paragraphs 3 and 4 and insert—
("3. At any time during the period referred to in paragraph 1 of this Schedule the Secretary of State may, by notice in writing given to a person under supervision as aforesaid,—

(a) discharge him from supervision, or

1115

(b) replace as from a specified date his supervising officer by another supervising officer whose name and address shall be specified in that notice, or

(c) cancel or modify any other of the requirements specified in his notice of supervision.")

Schedule 1, page 28, line 11, leave out ("served in respect of") and insert ("given to")
Schedule 1, page 28, line 12, leave out ("4") and insert ("3")
Schedule 1, page 28, line 13, leave out ("served") and insert ("given")
Schedule 1, page 28, line 18, leave out paragraphs 11, 12 and 13.
Schedule 1, page 28, line 44, leave out paragraph 15.
Schedule 1, page 29, line 6, leave out from ("the") to ("in") in line 9 and insert ("modification that")
Schedule 1, page 29, line 21, leave out ("in England and Wales or")
Schedule 1, page 29, line 25, leave out ("the Prison Commissioners or")
Schedule 1, page 29, line 26, leave out ("as the case may be")
Schedule 1, page 29, line 33, leave out paragraph 20.
Schedule 4, page 34, line 37, leave out from ("case") to the end of line 5 on page 35 and insert—
("(1B) In the last foregoing subsection 'court' means—

(a) in relation to summary proceedings, the court before which the proceedings are being taken;

(b) in relation to proceedings on indictment, the sheriff before whom the accused is taken for judicial examination;

(c) in relation to an appeal by way of stated case from a court of summary jurisdiction, that court;

(d) in relation to any other form of appeal, the court to which the appeal is made.

(1C) Where—

(a) in any case the court mentioned in paragraphs (a) or (b) of the last foregoing subsection has made legal aid available to an accused person in pursuance of this section, that person shall continue to be regarded as financially eligible for legal aid in connection with any subsequent proceedings (including proceedings by way of appeal) arising from the case;

(b) legal aid has not been made available to an accused person and his case comes before the High Court of Justiciary, legal aid shall be available to him if that Court is satisfied of his financial eligibility as aforesaid.")

Schedule 5, page 36, line 5, at end insert—
("The Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937 (1 Edw. 8 & 1 Geo. 6 c. 37)
In section 86(1)(b), for the words "or on licence" there shall be substituted the words "or under supervision".
In section 87—
in subsection (1), after the word "Act", there shall be inserted the words "and of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1963";
in subsection (3), for the words "on licence" there shall be substituted the words "under supervision", and after the word "Act", there shall be inserted the words "and of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1963".
In Schedule 2, in paragraph 9(3), for the words "this Act shall have effect" there shall be substituted the words "this Act and the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1963 shall have effect".
The Family Allowances Act 1945 (8 & 9 Geo. 6 c. 41)
In section 26, after subsection (8), there shall be inserted the following subsection:—
"(8A) Section 11 shall have effect as if for paragraph (a) of subsection (1) there were substituted the following paragraph—
(a) during which the child's detention in an approved school is authorised by an order made under any provision of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937, or by virtue of section 77 of that Act or of Part I of Schedule 2 to the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1963, and the child is not absent from the school under supervision;';
and as if for the references to the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 and to section 53 thereof there were substituted respectively references to the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937 and to section 57 thereof".
The Children Act 1948 (11 & 12 Geo. 6 c. 43)
In section 6(4), for the words from the beginning of the subsection to the words "said paragraph 6" there shall be substituted the words "Where under Part I of Schedule 2 to the Criminal Justice Act 1961 or, as the case may be, to the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1963 a child is under the supervision of the managers of an approved school, and it appears to the managers that the child has no home or that his home is unsatisfactory, then with the consent of the managers".")
Schedule 5, page 36, line 7, at end insert—
("In section 9(1), for the words from "and of any subsequent proceedings" to "aggravation" there shall be substituted the words "and of laying it before a court as a previous conviction in subsequent proceedings for another offence".")
Schedule 5, page 36, line 13, at end insert—
("In section 70(2), for the words "seventy-seven and seventy-eight" there shall be substituted the words "and seventy-seven".")
Schedule 5, page 36,line 28, at end insert—
("In section 18—
in subsection (1), for the words from "and a secretary" to the end of the subsection there shall be substituted the words "of the Council";
in subsection (3), the words from "and (b)" to the word "subsistence" shall be omitted;
after subsection (3), there shall be inserted the following subsection:—
"(3A) The Secretary of State may provide the services of a secretary and such office accommodation at which communications will be received, as the Council may require".
In section 19(3), for the words from "the supervision" to the word "specified" there shall be substituted the word "supervision".")
Schedule 5, page 36, leave out lines 46 to 48 and insert—
("in subsection (3), for the words from the beginning to the words "so specified" there shall be substituted the words "A person shall, after his release from a borstal institution and until the expiration of one year from the date of his release, be required to be under the supervision of such person as may be specified in a notice to be given to him by the Secretary of State on his release, and shall, while under that supervision, comply with such other requirements as may be so specified".")
Schedule 5, page 37, line 39, leave out ("fifty") and insert ("twenty-five")
Schedule 5, page 37, line 46, leave out ("two hundred and fifty") and insert ("one hundred and fifty")
Schedule 5, page 40, line 7, at end insert—
("(3B) For the purposes of subsection (3) of this section, a previous conviction shall be disregarded after the expiration of a period of ten years from the date of that conviction, being a period exclusive of any period during which the offender was in custody under sentence in respect of the conviction.")
Schedule 6, page 41, line 17, column 3, at end insert—
("In section 86(1)(b), the words 'or upon the revocation of his licence'.
In section 91(5), the words 'on licence or'.")
Schedule 6, page 41, line 19, column 3, leave out ("and")
Schedule 6, page 41, line 21, column 3, at end insert ("and, in paragraph 12, the words 'on licence or', in both places where they occur")
Schedule 6, page 41, line 21, at end insert—

("8 & 9 Geo. 6. c. 41.

The Family Allowances Act 1945.

In section 26(3), the words from the beginning of the subsection to the words 'seventy-eight thereof;'.")

Schedule 6, page 41, line 33, column 3, at end insert—
("In section 70(2), the words 'and to supervision and recall'.")
Schedule 6, page 41, line 59, at end insert—

("8 & 9 Eliz. 2. c. 23.

The First Offenders (Scotland) Act 1960.

Section 1(4).

9 & 10 Eliz. 2. c. 39.

The Criminal Justice Act 1961.

In Schedule 4, the amendment of section 6 of the Children Act 1948.

In Schedule 5, the repeal in section 6 of the Children Act 1948.")

In the Title
Line 14, after ("arrest") insert ("and the service of process")
LORD CRAIGTON: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

HOUSING ON SURPLUS RAILWAY LAND
4.37 p.m.
LORD HAWKE LORD HAWKE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the admitted urgent need of additional houses in the London area, they will aim at securing the use of all the railway land now becoming surplus for housing purposes. The noble Lord said: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Molson is making all speed to London, but Dr. Beeching is unable to get him here in time to ask his Question. Therefore he asked me if I would put the Question on his behalf, if it came on a little earlier than he expected.
In this Question there are two facts about which there is no dispute at all: first of all, there is the grave shortage of housing in London; secondly, there is probably already a surplus of office space, having regard to the capacity of the transport undertaking serving London to move people in and out to their work. Here, in the hands of the railway, are surplus lands. The areas are substantial. No precise figure has ever been stated to my knowledge, but I believe a Government spokesman has agreed that the figure is more than 1,000 acres, and my noble friend in the past has mentioned a figure of 1,500 acres. The problem is how to secure this area for housing in face of much higher values current for land for business premises.
The 1947 Transport Act did not give the Transport Commission power to develop land except for the purposes of

1119
their own undertakings. However, that omission was corrected in the Transport Act, 1962. During the passage of that Bill through this House, we tried to amend the Bill so that the power should be used only for what appeared to be the public good. In the event, the Government were reluctant to interfere with the market economy, and they lost a Division on this point by 59 votes to 39. As a result, they introduced a new clause to the Bill, which is Clause 87, and, in short, the purport of it is that the Railway Board must submit to the, Minister proper planning proposals for a balanced development.
Since the passage of that Act there have been moves on the question of railway land, and one hears that the ideas of the Railway Board and the London County Council, as the planning authority, differ as to what constitutes proper balanced development. Of course, the Minister is the arbiter, and the problem is either with him now or will eventually have to go to him. I think my noble friend has put his Question down to ensure that the Minister of Housing and Local Government does not lose sight of the point of view of your Lordships' House when we decided on that Bill, a year ago, that London housing should take precedence over other uses.
The difficulties that I envisage are of two needs. First of all, there is the obvious personal need. The land department of the railways, with its executives, sees great power and glory to be had in big schemes of office development, and they will obviously fight tooth and nail to keep their empire intact if there is any danger of the land being taken away from them and handed over to the local authority for housing purposes. Secondly, there is the question of finance. If land is used for offices, someone will pay more for its use than they will if it is used for houses. The railways will naturally claim: "Why should we lose money in the interests of housing?"
This is where I believe the matter in the past has been badly handled, through lack of imagination. We have written off hundreds of millions of railway capital, and we have put (I think the figure is) £800 million of railway capital to suspense account. As we all know, the prospects of any return on that capital
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put in suspense are very remote indeed. Yet nobody seems to have thought of the obvious quid pro quo for these financial operations: that the surplus land or, at any rate, the development value of that land should accrue to the State which has forgone its debt owed by the railways. The railways are still, I believe, quite unrealistically capitalised, and I consider we should still write off further capital and, in return, do a deal for the land. There are various forms which this deal could take and I will not go into them, but the most probable form would end up with some sort of State enterprise holding the land, or its development value, and it would be up to Parliament to say that the land shall be sold or leased on long leases to the housing authorities for housing purposes. The fact that the State had passed over to local authorities assets at less than their market value would require some accounting adjustment in the national accounts, but I believe it would be quite possible to do that.
My Lords, this is possibly the last great chance we shall have to get a big slice of land for housing Londoners within reach of their work. If we miss it and allow the railway land to be covered with office premises, adding to the congestion of traffic, then I do not think our descendants will lightly forgive us.
4.42 p.m.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, we are sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Molson, is not here to ask his Question. I think that I and my noble friends on this side would heartily support the demand expressed to the Government in his Question. I believe that everything the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, has said is true; the situation in London is quite tragic, as we all know, in probably millions of cases. But I am not prepared to discuss the general question. I have risen to bring a particular case to the attention of the Government. I have heard about it only within the last twenty-four hours, so my information, which obviously cannot wait because the House is about to rise for the Summer Recess, will possibly be incomplete, and I must ask the Minister to accept it as it is. When I get further information, I shall be able to write to him.
The position is that not far outside Central London there is a working-class housing estate containing 540 flats, which

1121
means housing for 1,500 or more people. The estate was built to rehouse the families whose land was needed for the Great Central Railway development about 1898 or 1899. It was put up by the railways, who, I believe, formed a subsidiary company for that purpose. They are large, old-fashioned housing blocks, and as they were built over 60 years ago they obviously have not the modern amenities that we expect to-day. But they are solid, well built and convenient for people whose work is in Central London; and the rents are reasonable.
In the last few days some alarming rumours have reached the tenants that the flats are to be sold by the railways over their heads. In these days, a sale of that kind can mean only one thing: that the buyer proposes to redevelop in such a way as to produce the maximum capital profit. That will mean, if the blocks are converted and modernised in a way that has happened in so many working-class housing areas in London, that the decontrolled tenants, of whom there are a great many in this estate, will have to leave; the flats will have money spent on them; they will be brought up into a quite different economic class and will be let or sold for far greater sums of money. To the best of my belief the position is that half the capital of the company which owns this estate of flats—capital with voting rights and to the value, I am told, of some £45,000—belongs to British Railways. It is that block of shares, I am told, that British Railways are contemplating selling. Obviously, if that half of the share capital is sold to somebody who already owns a few shares in the other half, it will give the purchaser control over the company.
Local opinion is, I think, disturbed for two reasons. First, there is the personal tragedy of those families involved, who may lose their homes; but there is the further question that the local authority's housing waiting list is going to be inflated enormously. I am told that the borough waiting list in St. Marylebone contains some 900 names. If another 500 or more are added, it will be an enormous increase to the housing problem facing the council. I believe that local authorities have power to buy
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housing property when it comes on to the market if it appears that the property is likely to suffer a change of character as a result of the sale. But I am not sure whether it could be proved that a sale like this would necessarily entail a change of character in the housing. It seems, therefore, from what I hear, that the position is not such that action by the borough council is possible.
What I should like to ask the Minister (as I have said, I do not expect him to give me an answer straight away) is whether he will find out if British Railways are, in fact, proposing to carry through this sale; and, if so, what is to happen to the families involved. As I have said, it would mean that a considerable proportion of the flats would become decontrolled, and that must mean an enormous worsening of the already very serious housing situation in that part of London.
4.49 p.m.
LORD WALERAN: My Lords, I should like to speak for just a moment or two on this matter. I fully appreciate the point of the Question which is down in the name of my noble friend Lord Molson, and the desire for further housing in our London area—and in our other great cities for that matter. Nevertheless, I believe that we are wrong in perpetuating the mistakes we have already made in not allowing enough road space or parking space in our cities. Naturally I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, that railway land, which I believe is often unsuitable for housing, should not be used for office building, thus bringing more people into our big cities and, as he said, making our road transportation facilities worse. On the other hand, if railway land is sold for housing purposes it, to my mind, involves a change of user; and all I would ask Her Majesty's Government and the right honourable gentleman the Minister concerned would be to be very certain that before they allow a change of user—in other words, something that is not concerned with transportation, as the railways were—the land is very seriously looked at with a view to its being used either for road improvements or for off-street garage accommodation for the people already coming into and living in London.
4.50 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, if I might deal first with the point just made by my noble friend Lord Waleran, I feel fairly certain that my noble friend Lord Molson, had he been here, would have had no quarrel with what he has just said. The contrast made in Section 87 of the Transport Act, 1962, to which I would allude, refers to a proper balance between offices and business premises, on the one hand, and housing and other amenity uses required for the resident community, on the other. So I am sure my noble friend Lord Molson would have agreed with that point.
What I should like to impress on Her Majesty's Government is the extreme urgency of this matter, and the danger that London will face unless the Government take the right steps now. I moved the Amendment on May 28 last year which was carried against the Government on the following day by a majority of 59 to 39. I am still absolutely convinced that the principle of that Amendment was right. It provided that none of these boards, the British Railways Board being the chief, could develop any of their land in the County of London to provide office accommodation not required for their own purposes unless the Minister of Housing and Local Government certified that by the time it became available for use an equivalent amount of existing office accommodation in London would have been converted to residential use. In other words, it might be that some of this railway land was suitable for offices, but it could not be used for offices, unless existing offices employing roughly the same number of people were converted to residential use; the reason for that being that there was so much office accommodation in central London already, that any increase of that accommodation at the expense of housing would mean an increase in the population travelling into and out of London daily, which would bring London to a complete standstill.
Unless the Government take the action that is now required, the future of this capital is in danger. It will become inefficient for all uses, including the requirements of business, and it will become very unpleasant to live in. I could not hold the whole of that victory of May 29, 1962, but nevertheless the Government did insert Section 87 of the
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Transport Act, 1962, which made it necessary for the Railways Board to attempt to agree this matter with the London County Council, which it appears they have not been able to do, and for the matter then to go to the Minister; and that is the position which we have now reached. It may be that my noble friend Lord Hastings, when he comes to reply, will admit—I am sure he will—the great importance of all these considerations, but will say the Minister has not yet made up his mind. Well, my Lords, I think this House would like to help him make up his mind, because the urgency is even greater than it was at the time that we had this crucial Division last year. As I reminded the House on the Second Reading of the recent Town and Country Planning Bill, I asked an oral Question in this House on November 8 last year. This is what I asked Her Majesty's Government [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 244, cols. 382–3]:
"… whether they will give their estimate․

(a) of the number of persons entering and leaving the county of London daily for the purpose of work; and

(b) of the increase expected when tenants have been found for all the office buildings already erected, or now in course of construction, or for the erection of which planning permission has already been given."

The Answer of the Minister, my noble friend Lord Chesham, on that occasion was this: he gave the figure of 1,340,000 as the number of people who now travel daily to and from work in the central area of London, and then he said this—and I use his actual words:
"New offices in the central area are expected to provide employment for some 80,000 additional people, most of whom will travel into, and out of, the area daily."
So there are an additional 80,000 people as a result of permissions already given by that date in November when I asked my Question.
If Her Majesty's Government go on allowing this process to continue, London will lose its greatness as a capital city. From being one of the pleasantest of capitals in which to live, it will become one of the least pleasant. Office workers will suffer the utmost hardship in travelling to and from their work daily. The congestion will be quite appalling. The efficiency and reputation of our capital city will suffer. I am perfectly certain—at least, I have very little doubt—that the Minister when he comes to reply will

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say that his right honourable friend proposes to preserve the balance laid down in Section 87 of the Transport Act, 1962. That is the section that provides these temporary provisions for London.
It is possible, however, that that section will not enable the Minister, in the view of his legal advisers, to say that none of this property, none of this land, shall be used for office purposes unless an equivalent amount of office accommodation is given up, even if he thinks that that is required in the interests of good planning. If that is the case, it is not beyond the wit of Her Majesty's Government or of Parliament to ask for the strengthening of the powers conferred by Section 87 of that Act. If Section 87 is in itself insufficient to stop the proposals of the railways in relation to Euston alone, then further powers are needed, and needed urgently.
I beg Her Majesty's Government not to say, as an excuse for allowing this process, which is threatening efficiency and the standard of living in London, to continue, merely that their existing statutory powers are limited. Their existing statutory powers would be a good deal stronger, if they had accepted and put into their own language the Amendment which I moved, and which this House carried by a majority of three to two, a little over a year ago. But there is now in the Statute their own Section 87. I should like to know from my noble friend whether he thinks that that section would enable the Minister to stop the further growth of office employment in central London through the use of railway property; and, if so, whether he will use his powers. But if he thinks that Section 87 will not suffice for this purpose, then I believe it is the virtually unanimous view of this House that further powers should be sought to stop a real disaster to our capital city.
5.2 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, may I turn briefly once again to the point which has been raised by my noble friend Lord Waleran—namely, the need for providing space for off-street parking and garages in the centre of our capital city? One of the chief objections raised to the proposals that are put forward by the local authorities is that the sites they have selected are land which could otherwise be used for housing, which of course
1126
directly reflects upon the Question of my noble friend Lord Molson. But I think there is becoming increasingly available railway land which could usefully be put to this purpose and which is at the moment under-developed—I refer, of course, to the main line railway stations and the adjoining areas in the centre of the city.
This has not been possible in the past, during the reign of the steam engine. But the steam engine, much mourned by some of us, not always from a practical point of view, is now vanishing, and I believe Victoria Station has almost no steam engines entering it at all. In North America—Canada in particular, and of course in New York—great building developments are in course of projection over main line railway stations. We have only to look at a map of London to see what an enormous quantity of land is occupied by these stations which could snow be properly built over and developed, principally for off-street parking for those who come to those stations and who could leave their cars on top of the stations. I know that this point has been made several times in similar debates. It seems to me to reflect directly upon Lord Molson's Question, and I should be grateful if my noble friend Lord Hastings would at least give me an assurance that from a long-term point of view the development of the main line railway stations for off-street parking on top of the buildings is under active consideration.
5.4 p.m.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I think we are bound to agree with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, about the dangers to London. They are clear to anyone who has spent any time at all walking about the streets of London, and certainly to anyone who has ever tried to park a car, or has had to go home during the rush hours or come in here during the rush hours in the morning. But I am bound to ask, why should the railway undertaking be placed in a worse position than any private owner in relation to this sort of thing? After all, Parliament has placed upon the railway undertaking a statutory duty to try to make its undertaking pay. That means that if it has any property to dispose of, surely it should be enabled to dispose of it to the highest bidder—that is, unless

1127
other property owners have the same restriction placed upon them.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord for a moment? I never suggested that the railways should do anything of the kind. I suggested that their capital should be written off in consideration of their handing over this land. They would not lose a penny.
LORD CHAMPION: If that is so, I would entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hawke. I am sorry that I was not able to be here when he made his speech for Lord Molson. If he made this point, clearly it is a point which the Government should consider in this connection. I feel strongly about this as an ex-railwayman. We in Parliament ought not to place a duty upon the undertaking to pay if possible, and on the other hand say to it, "As property owners you must do something entirely different from all the property owners in London, so many of whom are getting the highest prices for the erection of office blocks, and the rest." I believe that this is a point that one should make in this connection. While agreeing with everything that has been said in regard to trying to safeguard amenity and the use of land in the future, I am bound to return to this point: do not do anything to the railway undertaking that you would not do to a private landowner.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I do not know whether I might interrupt the noble Lord to say this, that, of course, as he can guess, I want the greatest possible restriction placed upon excessive office development by everybody. The reason that the question is particularly urgent in regard to railway property is that it is enormous in amount. There is nothing else threatening such an increase at the present moment, and it is dealt with under a separate part of the Statute. I apologise for the length of this interruption, but I am sure the noble Lord will agree that his argument is an argument for stopping undesirable office development by everybody; it is no argument for permitting it to the railways.
LORD CHAMPION: Yes; I think there is something in that point, and I well remember Lord Conesford's useful intervention in this connection on the
1128
Transport Act, 1962. Nevertheless, despite the fact that these properties are now coming on to the market, as it were, I think we ought to be careful about the restrictions that we place upon the Railway Boards if we do not at the same time take some steps to cause a sufficient regulation of the use of land which would prevent this undersirable development to which the noble Lords, Lord Conesford and Lord Hawke, and others, have referred.
I have tremendous sympathy with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, about parking facilities for London. Clearly, this might be an opportunity. This is an important point. There are places which might be used for this purpose. But let us try to secure that the railway undertaking at least gets for its property a reasonable price, and such a price as would be got by any private landowner in the circumstances of such a sale as obviously is going to take place.
5.8 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Molson, saw fit to put down this Question on the use of surplus railway land in the London area, and I am the first to regret that he has not been able to be here to ask the Question himself, in his usual manner of extreme perspicacity and ability interlaced with charm. I am sure that all noble Lords who have taken part in this little discussion will regret his absence, too. On the other hand, I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Hawke for asking the Question on his behalf, and doing it in such an admirable way, because I am indeed glad to have the opportunity of making quite clear to your Lordships what the present situation is.
The noble Lord has put down his Question just before we are to disperse for the long Summer Recess, not only in order to gain information—possibly not to gain information at all—but also, I suspect, in view of the number of occasions on which he has returned to this subject, not merely in a housing debate or during the London Government Bill, but on many many occasions, for another reason. I think that he has brought it up now before we scatter to the four corners of the earth (if that is where we are going, for the next three months)

1129
as a sort of warning to the Government (and what my noble friend Lord Cones-ford said rather endorses this suggestion) not to take any decision during the Recess with which he and his friends might strongly disapprove. I have nothing against that, and I am sure that everything which has been said will be of great use to my right honourable friend.
Be that as it may, I am glad to note that in the first part of his Question the noble Lord refers to the
"admitted urgent need of additional houses in the London area".
I would emphasise the word "admitted". That, as least, is an acknowledgment that my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government is fully aware of that need—indeed, who more so than he? My right honourable friend has made that need perfectly apparent in the White Paper on London issued earlier this year and by his many references to the importance of the South-East study. Indeed, his whole attitude towards housing is motivated by a sense of urgency, as I am sure my noble friends will agree.
The question of urgency brings me, of course, to the matter of time—the amount of time which it is taking the Railway Board to work out proposals for surplus railway land. Discussions have, of course, been going on for a long time, but the subject is highly technical and extremely complicated. Very important issues are involved—important to the Board, because of the large sums of money involved; important to the L.C.C. because of the major planning problems which are bound to arise when so much land in the built-up area of London is to change from operational to other uses. Nevertheless, the urgency of the matter is thoroughly appreciated by all concerned. It is, of course, for the Railway Board to submit proposals to my right honourable friend, and no such proposals have as yet been made; but it will, I know, be of some comfort to your Lordships that I can now say that the submission of the railways proposals is not likely to be delayed much longer.
Turning to the substance of the noble Lord's Question, which asks that Her Majesty's Government should aim at
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"securing the use of all the railway land now becoming surplus in the London area for housing purposes",
I must draw the attention of all noble Lords first to Section 11 and then to Section 87 of the Transport Act, 1962. Section 11 gives each Railway Board power to develop their land in such manner as they may think fit, and therefore it is obviously in their interest to develop it to the best financial advantage. I think the noble Lord, Lord Champion, made this point very strongly and very legitimately. The Boards must be allowed to develop their land to financial advantage. Why should they be put, as they otherwise would be, in a worse position than the private individual?
If I may deviate for a moment to deal with the matter brought up by the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, about the particular housing estate not far outside central London, this is said to be up for sale, presumably for redevelopment. The noble Earl will appreciate that this matter does not form part of the particular Question we are now debating. It is a much more straightforward housing problem; it is not dealing with surplus railway land. The Railway Board are under an obligation to obey all the rules of the Town and Country Planning Act—that is, provided, in this particular case, in Section 86 of the Transport Act. They would have to go through the normal procedure; whoever bought the property would have to go through the procedure of planning permission. I will make inquiries to see whether we know anything about this matter, but it is a rather different issue from the one we are now discussing.
To return to Section 11, it was because of the invitation under that section to the railways to gain the maximum financial advantage from their properties that Section 87 was inserted into the Bill in your Lordships' House, under the rubric, Temporary provision as to development of land in London. Section 87 says that the duty of the Commission and of the Boards is to consult the London County Council as to the use of any land in the administrative county of London or its immediate vicinity not required for the purposes of their business, and to submit proposals to the

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Minister of Housing and Local Government—and here I quote:
"consistent with the need for keeping a proper balance in the use of their land as between new office accommodation and other accommodation for trade, business and industry on the one hand, and new living accommodation (with the amenities required by a resident community) on the other hand …"
Here I might well refer to the points brought up by my noble friends Lord Waleran and Lord Mancroft in respect of road space and parking space. Lord Waleran said he thought that not all railway land was suitable for housing; and I am sure he is quite right. When it comes to the amenities required by "a resident community" I feel that, with modern planning attitudes, one must always allow for road space and parking space. That is not quite the same point as was introduced by Lord Mancroft, who referred to parking space over mainline stations when they are rebuilt, or if, in any particular instance, they were given up. These are certainly very interesting points that must be considered, and these matters will be taken into consideration when the proposals are put forward, because we have to maintain a proper balance and gain all the benefits we can from good planning. It is clear that a proper balance between residential use and other uses involving employment is called for.
The main problem on which the Railway Board are working is to get a balance sheet which fairly reconciles the housing, planning and railway interests. It must be clear from this that it is too much to expect that literally all the railway land, in the words of the Question, "now becoming surplus" in London will be available for housing purposes, and I do not believe that that was ever the intention of Section 87 of the Transport Act. I would revert to the remark of Lord Waleran, that not all land is necessarily suitable; and, quite apart from the fact that a proper balance must be achieved, we much consider whether the land is suitable or acceptable for housing. There is, of course, the related problem of decking over railway sites, and the L.C.C. naturally wish to study the costs of any such schemes, which may not in all cases prove to be feasible on the one hand or economic on the other hand. They have got to bear these matters in
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mind for economics necessarily come into the matter.
Subject to these points, however, which I am bound to bring before your Lordships, it is clearly desirable that as much land as possible be made available for housing; and when the proposals which must be put forward by the railways are considered by my right honourable friend he will have prominently in mind the need for housing land in London. What extent of housing land will be available, I should not like to say. The noble Lord, Lord Hawke, mentioned more than 1,000 acres, even up to 1,500 acres. But in a debate more than a year ago, the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe—the predecessor in my position—mentioned, I think, a figure of about 850 acres. But I do not think that at this stage one can be dogmatic about any acreage, and I should not like to suggest a figure to noble Lords, except to say that it will be a very large area and one that can make a great contribution to housing in London. There is no doubt about that.
My right honourable friend has made it plain on many occasions (and the last time was as recently as July 22 in another place), that the building of more houses is the answer to the exploitation of the housing shortage. Noble Lords need have no fear that my right honourable friend will overlook this necessity; nor the urgency with which this whole problem of surplus railway land needs to be solved. At the same time, it is only fair to say that the speed with which land for housing can be made available must depend, to some extent at least, on the railways' operational requirements. Finally, my Lords, I repeat that the aim is to obtain an appropriate balance, to examine all the considerations involved, and to reconcile conflicting interests against the background of general policy.
The noble Lord, Lord Conesford, invited me to say whether the powers under Section 87 of the Transport Act would prove sufficient for the Minister to take the decision which he believed to be right or desirable, and whether, if they were not sufficient, he would then take other powers. As my noble friend knows very well, I cannot anticipate an answer to a question which I did not know he was going to ask. At the same time, I think I can assure him

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that the Minister is fully aware of the views of your Lordships' House, and that he is not going to ignore the very strongly felt views which have been expressed, that this matter of office development is of great importance. But, of course, it is not the only matter which has to be considered and settled in the whole problem of railway surplus land. There are other sites, as we know, for industrial or trade development of various sorts, and it is only when the proposal is seen, and one is able to see the whole balanced picture, that my right honourable friend can begin to decide what will be the best thing to do. I can only repeat that he will act in the best interests of all the parties concerned, and that he will certainly hope to satisfy your Lordships with the solution which he will reach. Certainly I shall be ready on his behalf to convince your Lordships that the decision which is made is the right one and is in the interests of London and the people who live in it.

BATH CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  DURHAM COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
    FELIXSTOWE DOCK AND RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
    Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (IMPROVEMENTS) BILL
  Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.