HL Deb 29 July 1963 vol 252 cc986-7

2.56 p.m.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that on Sunday 14th July the 6.15 p.m. Sheffield-Chinley four-coach train was pulled by two 2,500 h.p. diesel locomotives manned by two crews, and if they will state (a) if this is a record for waste of locomotive power, (b) since this line is included in the Beeching closure list, the basis on which the movement costs to be submitted to the Transport Users Consultative Committee will be calculated.]

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, the use made by the railways of their locomotives is the responsibility of the British Railways Board. My right honourable friend does not intervene in matters of management. Any financial information provided by the Board in connection with an opposed passenger closure proposal will be on the lines agreed with the Consultative Committees.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this is another example—and one can quote hundreds—where the costs have either been unnecessarily inflated or maintained at a high level and earnings have been deliberately reduced, preparatory to a case for closure? Is this not an abuse of the duties of the British Railways Board to the public; and if the Ministry of Transport allows it go by unheeded is it not a dereliction of the duty of the Minister?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, as I have said, it is not the responsibility of the Government to organise the locomotives on the railways. But, persistently helpful as I am, I again went to the British Railways Board to find out what had been going on and I found that the second engine was required to bring back the 8.25 train from Chinley to Sheffield and it had to make an operational movement by itself. In order to save operational time and cost they hitched it on the front of the train.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I do not doubt that explanations can always be given—though whether they are right or complete is another matter. But the noble Lord has not answered my question. Does he not think that these matters, not in detail but in principle, are matters for the Government if these figures are going to be used as evidence in closing down a public service?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, what I do not think—and about which I am quite positive—is that the substance of the noble Lord's question does not arise from his Question on the Order Paper.