HL Deb 29 July 1963 vol 252 cc995-1003

[The references are to Bill [63] as first printed for the House of Commons.]

Clause 1, page 1, line 13, leave out ("or the principal Act") and insert ("the principal Act or the principal Scottish Act")

Clause 1, page 1, line 14, leave out from ("court") to end of line

page 2, line 6, after second ("time") insert ("and at least once in every twelve months")

Clause 4, page 3, line 27, leave out ("twenty-eight") and insert ("twenty-one")

Clause 7, page 5, line 22, at end insert— ("(2) Where a child or young person is in the care of a local authority by virtue of an order under the Matrimonial Proceedings (Children) Act 1958 or the Matrimonial Proceedings (Magistrates' Courts) Act 1960 the local authority may, with the leave of the court having power to vary or revoke the order, apply to a juvenile court under this section; and if on such an application they satisfy the juvenile court that the child or young person is refractory and the court thinks it expedient to do so, the court may order him to be sent to an approved school.")

Clause 9, page 6, line 40, leave out ("by a juvenile court")

Clause 9, page 6, line 41, leave out ("be")

Clause 9, page 6, line 42, leave out ("justice of the peace") and insert ("juvenile court")

Clause 11, page 9, line 5, at end insert— ("(c) section 79 of the Mental Health Act 1959;")

Clause 14, page 9, line 24, leave out ("under the age of sixteen")

Clause 14, page 9, line 32, leave out from ("and") to end of line

Clause 14, page 9, line 42, leave out ("under the age of sixteen")

Clause 15, page 10, line 29, leave out from ("is") to ("cause") and insert ("under the care of the managers of an approved school but not only under supervision")

Clause 15, page 10, line 30, at end insert (", and may, in exceptional circumstances, make payments for his welfare")

Clause 22, page 12, line 26, leave out from ("released") to ("he") in line 27

Clause 23, page 13, line 15, leave out from ("not") to ("be") in line 16 and insert ("otherwise brought before the court or justice")

Clause 24, page 14, line 27, leave out ("child") and insert ("person")

Clause 27, page 15, line 16, leave out ("under the age of thirteen")

After Clause 29, insert the following new clause:

Recovery of arrears of contributions

(".—(1) Where during any period (in this section referred to as 'the period of default')—

  1. (a) a person was liable to make contributions in respect of a child; but
  2. (b) no order was in force requiring him to make the contributions,
a magistrates' court acting for the petty sessions area where he is for the time being residing may, on the application of the person who would have been entitled to receive payment under such an order, make an order (in this section referred to as an 'arrears order') requiring him to pay such weekly sum, for such period, as the court, having regard to his means, thinks fit; but the aggregate of the payments required to be made by any person under an arrears order shall not exceed the aggregate that, in the opinion of the court, would have been payable by him under a contribution order in respect of the period of default, or if it exceeded three months, the last part thereof, less the aggregate of the payments (if any) made by him in respect of his liability during that period or, as the case may be, the last part thereof.

For the purposes of this subsection the last part of the period of default shall be taken to be the last three months thereof and such time, if any, preceding the last three months as is equal to the time during which it continued after the making of the application for the arrears order.

(2) No application for an arrears order shall be made later than three months after the end of the period of default.

(3) An arrears order shall be treated as a contribution order, and payments under it as contributions, for the purposes of the following enactments, that is to say— in the principal Act, subsections (3) and (4) of section 86, sections 87(4), 89 and 102(1)(c),

paragraph 2 of Schedule 8 to the Local Government Act 1958.

(4) Where the person who was liable to make contributions resides in Scotland or Northern Ireland, subsection (1) of this section shall have effect as if for the magistrates' court therein mentioned there were substituted a magistrates' court acting for the petty sessions area where the applicant is for the time being residing or, where the applicant is a local authority, a magistrates' court acting for the area or part of the area of the local authority.

(5) A person liable to make payments under an arrears order shall, except at a time when he is under a duty to give information of his address under section 14(1) of this Act, keep the person to whom the payments are to be made informed of his address; and if he fails to do so he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five pounds.

(6) In this section— 'child' has the same meaning as in the Children Act 1948, 'contributions' means contributions under section 86 of the principal Act, and 'contribution order' means an order under section 87 of the principal Act.")

After Clause 30 insert the following new clause:

Increase of penalty for sales of tobacco, &c., to persons under 16.

(".Section 7 of the principal Act and section 18 of the principal Scottish Act (which, in subsection (1) prohibit the sale of tobacco and cigarette papers to persons apparently under the age of sixteen and, in subsection (2), enable a court to order measures to be taken to prevent the use by such persons of automatic machines for the sale of tobacco) shall each be amended, as respects offences committed after the commencement of this Act, by substituting—

  1. (a) in subsection (1) (which provides for fines not exceeding two, five and ten pounds on a first, second or subsequent conviction) for the words 'two', 'five' and 'ten' the words 'twenty-five', 'fifty' and 'one hundred', respectively; and
  2. (b) in subsection (2) (which provides for fines not exceeding five pounds for failure to comply with the order of the court and further fines not exceeding one pound for each day during which the offence continues) for the words 'five' and 'one' the words 'fifty' and 'ten', respectively.")

Clause 35, page 18, line 16, leave out ("person under the age of sixteen") and insert ("child")

Clause 35, page 18, line 35, leave out ("person") and insert ("child")

Clause 35, page 18, line 40, leave out ("person") and insert ("child")

Clause 35, page 18, line 42, leave out ("three") and insert ("six")

Clause 35, page 18, line 43, leave out ("another performance") and insert ("other performances")

Clause 35, page 18, line 44, leave out ("one day") and insert ("three days")

Clause 35, page 19, line 5, leave out ("his") and insert ("the child's")

Clause 35, page 19, line 6, leave out ("the person taking part") and insert ("him")

Clause 35, page 19, line 10, leave out ("persons") and insert ("children")

Clause 35, page 19, line 16, leave out ("person") and insert ("child")

Clause 35, page 19, line 19, leave out from ("and") to ("that") in line 20

Clause 35, page 19, line 34, leave out ("person") and insert ("child")

Clause 35, page 19, line 39, leave out from ("section") to ("shall") in line 40

Clause 35, page 19, line 41, leave out ("he") and insert ("the child in respect of whom it is granted")

Clause 35, page 19, line 43, leave out ("person") and insert ("child")

Clause 35, page 20, line 4, leave out subsection (9)

Clause 36, page 20, line 12, leave out ("person") and insert ("child")

Clause 36, page 20, line 15, leave out ("person") and insert ("child")

Clause 36, page 20, line 17, leave out paragraph (b) and insert— ("(b) the licence is for dancing in a ballet which does not form part of an entertainment of which anything other than ballet or opera also forms part and the application for the licence is accompanied by a declaration that the part he is to dance cannot be taken except by a child of about his age; or (c) the nature of his part in the performance is wholly or mainly musical and either the nature of the performance is also wholly or mainly musical or the performance consists only of opera and ballet.")

Clause 37, page 20, line 43, leave out ("person") and insert ("child")

Clause 38, page 21, line 30, leave out ("person") and insert ("child")

Clause 38, page 22, line 8, leave out ("person") and insert ("child")

Clause 40, page 22, line 44, after ("if") insert ("(a)")

Clause 40, page 23, line 3, at end insert ("or (b) the engagement is for dancing in a ballet which does not form part of an entertainment of which anything other than ballet or opera also forms part and the application for the licence is accompanied by a declaration that the part he is to dance cannot be taken except by a child of about his age; or (c) the engagement is for taking part in a performance the nature of which is wholly or mainly musical or which consists only of opera and ballet and the nature of his part in the performance is wholly or mainly musical.")

Clause 41, page 23, line 13, leave out ("or young persons")

Clause 45, page 24, leave out lines 26 to 35 and insert— ("While a person is in the care of a local authority under the principal Act, the principal Scottish Act or the Children Act 1948 or by virtue of an order under the Matrimonial Proceedings (Children) Act 1958 or the Matrimonial Proceedings (Magistrates' Courts) Act 1960")

Clause 45, page 24, line 38, leave out from ("person") to (and") in line 40

Clause 45, page 24, line 42, leave out from ("not") to ("undertake") in line 43 and insert ("the person concerned is still in their care")

After Clause 45, insert the following new clause:

Extension of power to appoint guardian

(".A court may entertain an application under section 4 (2A) of the Guardianship of Infants Act 1925 to appoint a guardian of an infant notwithstanding that, by virtue of a resolution under section 2 of the Children Act 1948, a local authority have parental rights with respect to him; but where on such an application the court appoints a guardian the resolution shall cease to have effect.")

Clause 48, page 26, line 36, leave out Guernsey") and insert ("any other part of the Channel Islands")

Clause 52, page 28, line 9, leave out subsection (2) and insert— ("(2) Section 49 of the principal Act and section 54 of the principal Scottish Act (which restrict newspaper reports of proceedings in juvenile courts) shall, with the necessary modifications, apply in relation to any proceedings on appeal from a juvenile court (including an appeal by case stated or, in Scotland, stated case) as they apply in relation to proceedings in a juvenile court.")

Clause 53, page 28, line 31, transfer Clauses 53 and 54 to follow Clause 45.

Clause 53, page 28, line 37, at end insert— ("(2) The power of a local authority under paragraph (b) of section 2(1) of the Children Act 1948 to resolve that all rights and powers of a parent or guardian shall vest in them may be exercised, as well as in the cases mentioned in that paragraph, in any case where it appears to them—

  1. (a) that the parent or guardian suffers from a mental disorder (within the meaning of the Mental Health Act 1959 or the Mental 1000 Health (Scotland) Act 1960) which renders him unfit to have the care of the child; or
  2. (b) that the parent or guardian has so persistently failed without reasonable cause to discharge the obligations of a parent or guardian as to be unfit to have the care of the child;
and the power of the court or sheriff, under subsection (3) of that section, to order that the resolution shall not lapse may also be exercised if the court or sheriff is satisfied that the person who objected to the resolution is unfit to have the care of the child by reason of his persistent failure to discharge the obligations of a parent or guardian.")

Clause 55, page 29, line 13, after ("Act") insert ("or by virtue of an order under the Matrimonial Proceedings (Children) Act 1958 or the Matrimonial Proceedings (Magistrates' Courts) Act 1960")

After Clause 55, insert the following new clause:

Adjustment between local authorities of expenses of maintaining persons in remand homes.

(".—(1) The Secretary of State may, after consulting such local authorities or associations of local authorities as he thinks fit, by statutory instrument make regulations providing, in such cases as may be prescribed by the regulations, for the recovery, by a local authority providing a remand home from such other local authority as may be so prescribed, of such sum in respect of a person detained in the remand home as may be determined in accordance with a rate prescribed from time to time by order made by the Secretary of State by statutory instrument; and any such order may prescribe different rates for different circumstances.

(2) No sum shall be recoverable under such regulations in any case where the expenses of maintaining the person detained in the remand home are treated onder section 11(3) of this Act as if they were expenses incurred by the authority as managers of an approved school or are recoverable under section 51(3) of the Children Act 1948 (which provides for the recovery of expenses where a child is removed to a place of safety); but where regulations under this section are in force, any expenses incurred by a local authority in maintaining a person in a remand home and recoverable under the said section 51(3) shall for the purposes of that section be taken to be equal to such sum as might, but for this subsection, be recoverable in respect of that person under the regulations.

(3) Any payment by a local authority which is made or determined in pursuance of this section shall be treated for the purposes of Schedule 1 to the Local Government Act 1958 or, as the case may be, Schedule 1 to the Local Government and Miscellaneous Financial Provisions (Scotland) Act 1958 as expenses incurred in respect of remand homes (and accordingly as excluded from relevant expenditure for the purposes of general grants)

(4) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.")

Clause 61, page 31, line 28, leave out ("section") and insert ("sections 1") after ("10",) insert ("and section (Increase of penalty for sales of tobacco etc. to persons under sixteen)")

Clause 61, page 31, line 32, after ("25") insert ("and section 26")

Clause 61, page 31, line 40, leave out subsection (7)

Schedule 2, page 36, line 36. after ("committee") insert ("or by any juvenile court panel concerned")

Schedule 3, page 39, line 32, at end insert— ("(2) In section 67(2), after the words 'five foregoing sections' there shall be inserted the words 'or subsection (8) of section 84 of this Act.'")

page 40, line 29. leave out ("in their area who is") and insert ("who is or is likely to be in their area while")

page 40, line 30, leave out ("or") and insert ("any person detained in or out under supervision from that school whose parent or guardian is in their area, and any person in their area")

page 40, line 38, leave out ("Guernsey") and insert ("any other part of the Channel Islands")

page 41, line 38, leave out ("Guernsey") and insert C any other part of the Channel Islands")

page 43, line 11, at end insert— ("39. In section 10(1), the words 'has not attained the age of sixteen and' shall be omitted.")

page 43, line 16, after first ("of") insert ("section 1 and")

page 43, line 25, at end insert— ("42. In section 44(1), after the words 'the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937' there shall be inserted the words section 1 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1963'.")

page 43, line 29, at end insert ("and after the words 'sections 62 to 66' there shall be inserted the words 'or subsection (8) of section 84'").

Schedule 5, page 45, line 44, column 3, at end insert ("In section 26, in subsection (1), the words or in default of payment of such a fine'.")

page 46, leave out lines 11 to 13

page 47, leave out lines 12 to 14

page 47, line 38, at end insert—

("11&12 Geo. 6. c. 43. The Children Act 1948. In section 10(1), the words 'has not attained the age of sixteen and'.")

page 47, line 53, column 3, at end insert ("In section 3, subsections (2) and (3)")

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD DILHORNE)

My Lords, I think it would be for your Lordships' convenience that the Amendments should be taken in blocks.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, judging by what the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has said, I think it would be convenient that we should take all the Amendments together. In that event, I should like merely to echo what the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has said. I was speaking only semi-seriously when I said that it was rather annoying that another place had been able still further to improve on the work we had done. But since this may be my last opportunity of saying anything on this Bill, I should like to express my appreciation of all the work which noble Lords in this House have done in making what, I think, most of us feel is a useful measure a still more useful one. If it is agreeable to noble Lords, I should like to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments.

Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Jellicoe.)

LORD SILKIN

My Lords, I think it would be right that I should say a word of appreciation to the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe. Of course, he has not given us everything we wished; and it would be most surprising if he had done. Possibly, he might not have been doing his duty if he had given us everything for which we asked. But I think I can say for the whole House that he has performed his duties with the greatest skill, ability and charm. We all appreciate that even when he has not given us what we asked, he has appeared to be regretful, and it was always more in sorrow than otherwise that he had to say "No". I should like to assure him that the whole House appreciates the way in which he has conducted this measure.

THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH

My Lords, I would echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and express my own appreciation of the great courtesy and consideration the noble Earl has shown to myself and to others. I would ask one further question; I do not expect an immediate answer, but I think it worth putting—possibly it could be answered by the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack. It is: what are the chances of a consolidation of children's legislation following the enactment of this Bill? Such a consolidation would be much appreciated by those engaged in the work.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, in answer to that question, I should not like at this juncture to speculate upon what are the chances. I gather that the noble Earl wanted me to state the odds against a consolidation measure. I do not think that is part of my function, but I agree with him that consolidation, when it can be done, is always very desirable.

On Question, Motion agreed to.