§ 3.12 p.m.
THE EARL OF GOSFORDMy Lords, before putting the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper, I feel that I should apologise to your Lordships, and particularly to my noble friends Lord Carrington and Lord Chesham, for not being, by about 30 seconds, in my place yesterday. I also ought to apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Montagu of Beaulieu. He and I were listening to the Prime Minister and I think he was taking his lead from me, and I rather underestimated the time that it took for the two Introductions yesterday.
I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the principle of the immutability of Armed Forces pensions has now been abolished.]
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (LORD CARRINGTON)My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend, as I am sure the whole House will be, for his apology. The term "immutability" is not an apt expression to apply to the pensions policy of Her Majesty's Government. Immutability would mean that pensions are not capable of change, but there have been six pensions increase measures enacted in the last eighteen years, the last and largest dating from the beginning of this year.
THE EARL OF GOSFORDMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his Answer, I think that the basis of the Government argument in the past for not ironing out the anomalies in the various systems of Service pensions, whether widows' pensions or officers' retired pay, has always been the immutability of pensions. Now that it has been agreed that immutability has disappeared, may I ask my noble friend whether the anomalies also will disappear?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, what I said was that it would be hardly right to suggest that the pensions policy of Her Majesty's Government was immutable, since in the last eighteen years there have been six increases. But, of course, all public service pensions are based on service and rank, and in the case of the Civil Service on the pay which is held before retirement.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, does the noble Lord mean that the anomalies appear to be immutable?
THE EARL OF GOSFORDMy Lords, I fail to understand my noble friend's reply, because in every debate we have had in your Lordships' House on this subject the basis of the Government's argument has been that pensions are immutable and it is for that reason that these anomalies cannot be ironed out. Can I ask my noble friend whether the answer is either that all those arguments over the past eighteen years have been on a false basis, or that there is now a new basis?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am not trying to evade anything. What I was saying to my noble friend was that the word "immutability" is wrong. They are not immutable. That does not mean that the basis on which the pensions have been granted has changed in any way.