§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government why the rose blooms at the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, have been blighted this summer.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD)My Lords, the damage was caused by a selective weed killer applied to the grass between the rose beds. Shortly after the weed killer was applied on April 18, light rain fell followed by a spell of heavy, quiet weather which unexpectedly caused the weed killer to vaporise in sufficient concentration to damage the young growth on the rose bushes.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the name of this weed killer?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, the weed killer used contained 2,4-D, a growth regulator, not insecticidal, and it does not represent a hazard to human health if correctly used.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMay I ask the noble Lord whether it was correctly used in this case, and what would happen to children playing on the grass where this substance was deposited?
LORD ST. OSWALDIt was used completely correctly. It was applied with a highly efficient instrument which does not allow spray, and was used entirely as 880 recommended by my Department. The whole matter is still being investigated and discussed with the manufacturers. I could describe at great length to the noble Lord exactly how unusual were the circumstances which produced these conditions. We are quite certain it must be very rare indeed.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, how can the noble Lord be so certain that there will not be frequent occasions of light rain followed by a spell of calm, heavy weather? If, in fact, this material is being correctly used, does it not suggest that the use which is specified as being safe is not safe?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, in answer to one of the noble Lord's questions, this particular weed killer has been in use in this country for nine years. This is the first case of this kind that we know to have occurred. It was not merely weather conditions which were responsible, but weather conditions combined with the layout of the gardens and the state of growth of the rose trees at that particular time.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that damage to private gardens is increasing throughout the rural areas of the country owing to the indiscriminate spraying of crops and the negligent manner in which contractors employed by the gardeners are putting on this material? I speak with a vested interest. I have had some very fine prize rose trees ruined, so this is not an exceptional case. The contractor comes with these huge pumps and sprays, irrespective of the weather, and the vapour from them can travel two or three hundred yards. Will the noble Lord ask his right honourable friend the Minister if he will look into the matter to see whether some regulation cannot be made to prohibit the use of these sprays when the fields are adjacent to private houses and private gardens?
LORD ST. OSWALDI am in the advantageous position that the noble Lord described this incident to me with some poignancy the other day. I have therefore had myself advised on what his recourse was. If, as I understood in private conversation with him, there were witnesses to the effect that the spraying being done in his neighbour's field was carried on to his garden, he has recourse to Common Law.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that I did not need to ask a Parliamentary question to learn that. I want to know whether the Minister will do something to prevent my having to employ an army of lawyers to prevent something that should never occur.
LORD ST. OSWALDI am sure that the noble Lord does not want me to go into the whole subject of a debate which we had some months ago, but in that debate I stressed the usefulness of these sprays to agriculture. To say that no sprays could ever be used in the neighbourhood of anybody's garden would be going beyond what we think is right. What we do say is that they must be properly used, and it seems to me that on this occasion the spray in the field of the noble Lord's neighbour was not being used either properly or considerately.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, in view of the lethal effect of this particular weed killer, has the noble Lord assured himself that its distributors have been told they should warn those engaged in producing vegetables that, if not used carefully, it has this particular toxic effect?
LORD ST. OSWALDThe noble Baroness is much more professionally aware than I of the meaning of the word "lethal". I am bound to say that this was not lethal even to the young roses, because it spoilt the first growth but the second growth which is now emerging appears to be unaffected.
LORD REAMy Lords, would the noble Lord say whether this operation has resulted in the blighting of anything else or anybody else?
LORD ST. OSWALDNo, my Lords, nothing more sensitive than young rose buds. I like to think that the Liberal Party is immune.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, in order that these sprays may be used even more correctly than they appear to have been used in the past, would the noble Lord now add a note to his booklet on the safe use of chemicals in the garden, saying that these are not to be used before light rain and a spell of heavy calm weather, and also provide a weather forecast?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I have said that this matter is under discussion with the manufacturers. Anything that emerges from these discussions will of course be applied to similar herbicides.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, will the noble Lord also look into the possibility, of which there seems to be evidence, that this particular substance may cause leukæmia in human beings?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I did not even catch the esoteric phrase which the noble Lord used. I am afraid I am certainly not qualified to answer him without notice.
§ LORD SHACKLETONI hope the noble Lord will not regard the word "leukæmia" as an esoteric phrase.
LORD ST. OSWALDI did not in fact hear the word "leukæmia" as it emerged from the noble Lord. All the same I shall need notice of that question.