§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House, if I make a statement about noise. The House will be glad to know that I have received the Final Report of the Committee which I appointed in April, 1960, under the chairmanship of Sir Alan Wilson, to consider the problem of noise. The Report is being published as a White Paper, and copies are available in the Printed Paper Office.
The Government are most grateful to Sir Alan Wilson and his colleagues for their thorough and illuminating examination of the many aspects of this problem. 648 The Government recognise that the prevention of noise is an important factor in the preservation of amenity in our environment, and welcome the Report as a major contribution to public understanding of the problem and of ways to mitigate it. The whole subject is clearly one of interest and concern to the Government, although much of the responsibility for mitigating the problem lies with local authorities, industry, members of the professions and the public. They have, therefore, already given preliminary study to the recommendations in the Report.
The Report places particular emphasis on noise from motor vehicles and aircraft. As the House will remember, the Committee presented an Interim Report last summer on noise from motor vehicles, recommending the fixing of statutory limits. My right honourable friend the Minister of Transport proposes to give effect to nearly all these recommendations in new regulations, which he has recently circulated in draft for comment to the organisations concerned. These regulations would lay down maximum permissible noise levels for motor vehicles when used on the roads. They would also prescribe the instruments to be used for roadside tests and specify the conditions under which such tests must be carried out.
As regards aircraft, my right honourable friend the Minister of Aviation will maintain the present strict control over movement and activity of aircraft in and near airports and will continue to support research into ways of reducing aircraft noise at source and to investigate other aspects of the problem. In this way, he aims at keeping the amount of aircraft noise to a minimum consistent with the needs of increasing air travel. My right honourable friends the Ministers of Education and Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland will seek to ensure that new schools and hospitals in the close vicinity of airports are designed to minimise noise inside the buildings and will continue to seek to reduce noise in existing buildings. The Government are, however, unable to accept the Committee's recommendation that grants should be paid towards the cost of soundproofing private houses near Heathrow. The Government are not satisfied that the situation at Heathrow justifies this 649 recommendation. They believe it would be impossible to limit such grants to houses near airports and difficult, if not impossible, to distribute them within clearly defined categories of houses and in a manner which was fair both to the recipients and to the rest of the community, who would have to meet the substantial cost.
The Government have decided to accept a number of the recommendations relating to the need for additional research, for improved methods of disseminating information about the results of research and for making industry and the public aware of the need to avoid making unnecessary noise. My right honourable friends and I are already implementing some of these recommendations and are considering how the others should be implemented. For example, the Medical Research Council and the National Physical Laboratory of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research are co-operating in a joint project, sponsored by the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance, to survey the effects of industrial noise on the hearing of workers by means of mobile laboratories which will visit factories of various types.
The Report contains a large number of recommendations covering other aspects of the problem of noise. In so far as they come within the direct responsibility of the Government, they will be dealt with by individual Ministers. Other recommendations will be discussed with local authorities and others concerned. Some require legislation. The Government cannot take a decision on these before consultation. This will be undertaken as soon as possible.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I hope your Lordships will excuse me, if I say that perhaps the noble Viscount the Leader of the House is the most appropriate Minister to introduce this statement on noise. I listened with great interest to the interview with him on television recently. The Report has only just appeared in the Printed Paper Office, and obviously we shall need to study it carefully before giving our detailed views to the House. However, there are one or two things which perhaps I may put to the noble and learned Viscount the Leader of the House.
650 First of all, I take note of what he said about the Minister of Transport and the need for consultation on the issue of regulations. Will legislation be required for any of the matters which are contained in the statement to the House today? May I ask also, with regard to what he said in the statement on industrial noise, whether he is aware that there are certain industries which have a high percentage of deafness amongst their industrial workers? We are wondering whether, in the course of their duties, factory inspectors are instructed to give special attention to reporting upon the actual state of noise they find and not merely to confine themselves to safety in regard to machinery. Perhaps these and other questions, which we may put down on the Order Paper, may be of assistance.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I thank the noble Earl. I realise that he may want to return to some questions in what is quite a voluminous document. I agree that some of these matters will require legislation, although, as I said, no decision on these can be taken until after consultation with the bodies interested, when they have had a chance to study the report. As regards industrial noise, I do know, from my work in connection with the Medical Research Council, that certain industries show a higher percentage of deafness than others, and this is certainly related to industrial noise. I should need notice of the question about factory inspectors, but I know that my right honourable friend will take particular note of what the noble Earl has said.
LORD REAMy Lords, we are very grateful to the Government for taking up this question in this way. I noticed that the noble and learned Viscount's statement referred to the effect on amenities and deafness, but there was little reference to the actual effect on the nerves of the general public of this growing noise in modern-day life. It seems to most of us that the creation of noise is steadily approaching the maximum in decibels that the human eardrum and frame are calculated to stand, and it is becoming a highly serious problem. I would urge that research should be done particularly into controlling the increase of noise. In a few years' time, if this is done, we shall look back with horror and surprise that we have endured for so long the terrible noise to which we are subjected in our daily life now.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, this aspect of the problem, of course, is familiar to us. It was particularly because of it that we commissioned the inquiry. The Medical Research Council have done a great deal of work on noise of one sort or another, and some rather curious and interesting results have been published.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, can the noble Viscount tell us when this legislation is likely to appear, and how he expects to find time to deal with it? I would also ask him whether this is rather a lengthy way of giving us his personal view, to "keep our big mouths shut."
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I do not know whether the actual noise caused by whispers in the corridors of Westminster is very large in terms of decibels. I think that it is the noisier kind of noise that we are talking about this afternoon. Clearly, I cannot give a date for legislation. This must find its way into the Government's legislative programme. If we had discussed the Motion standing in the name of the noble Lord on Government organisation in this country, I think perhaps I could have said something about that.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, is my noble and learned friend aware that it is not necessarily the noise of the greatest number of decibels that causes the greatest irritation? Few things are a greater nuisance than transistor portable radios.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I am aware that the subjective element in what kind of noise annoys us most is a most important factor.
LORD GRANCHESTERMy Lords, can the noble Viscount say whether the Committee considered the question of noise made on the roads by pneumatic drills?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I think they did; but on that I stand subject to correction.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House whether it is necessary to wait for legislation before we take some action in those areas where it is well known that there is premature deafness, 652 and it is accepted as just a way of life, and yet people with knowledge of the fact are doing absolutely nothing to protect these people? Cannot instructions be given forthwith to factory inspectors?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, as I said, I should require notice of the question as regards factory inspectors, but my right honourable friend will, of course, take notice of what has been said. I think the noble Lady must face the fact that no member of the Government can effectively legislate unless there is power to do so under some Act of Parliament. It is this precise problem which may require legislation.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, may I ask one question about the action that may be taken? I understand that the Minister of Transport is undertaking consultations and the re-drafting of regulations. But could not something have been done long since to stop the increase in noise, which I think is controlled already by regulation, of sports cars and motor cycles, with the tremendous row they make in revving-up, if I may so describe it? I think that perhaps the fault really lies in the fact that the regulations which exist are not properly enforced.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I wish that my noble friend Lord Chesham were here to help me about this aspect. I agree with the noble Earl that, in practice, noise on the roads is partly a question of enforcement, as well as of regulation. It is rather like the smell made by a diesel engine of a vehicle going up hill, which is already against the law: the difficulty is to catch them, and then to enforce the law. This is certainly so, up to a point, in the field of noise.