§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, before they negotiated with the Argentine Government the curtailment of shipments of chilled beef from that country, they gave consideration to the substantial losses which would be suffered by British ship owners who have built and operate specialised tonnage for the shipment of this traffic; and whether the Government will consider the payment of compensation to these owners upon a "deficiency payment" basis for the loss of earnings sustained in their being arbitrarily prevented by Government action from carrying these traffics.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM)My Lords, shipping interests were not overlooked when the urgent problems caused by this year's beef imports from the Argentine were considered. The balance of national interest was, however, in favour of seeking restraint in there imports. There was a very sharp increase in them for the first part of this year which seriously upset our meat market, and because of this the Argentine Government were asked to restrain their exports for the remainder of the year. The future arrangements for the import of meat are at present being reviewed by the Government, and due weight will be given to the valuable investment made by British shipowners with this traffic in mind. I 642 must, however, say that Her Majesty's Government cannot consider compensating shipping lines for losses of possible earnings even when these could be attributed to Government action of this kind.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, although the noble Lord says that shipping interests were not overlooked, will he take into consideration the fact that they were not even consulted, and that the short-fall in the next six months brought about by this Government action will cause a diminution of over £1 million in the earnings of those shipping companies which are dealing in this specialised traffic? May I ask him whether the Government would not think it better in the interests of British ship owners, of British meat producers and, indeed, of British housewives if bulk purchase and long-term contracts were entered into, instead of having this policy of what one might call "robbing Peter to pay Paul" which damages all interests concerned?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I am always glad to consider any suggestions the noble Lord puts forward, and I will convey his words to my right honourable friend. But the noble Lord must remember that this operation really results in a levelling out as much as anything; and there is also, of course, an element of commercial judgment which enters into the matter.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHDoes the noble Lord not agree that it is very difficult for the British ship owner and for the British public to understand why, on the one hand, Her Majesty's Government offer British ship owners loans up to £30 million, and, on the other hand and at the same time, arbitrarily take away traffic which prevents them from utilising economically the ships they already own?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I think that the noble Lord will agree that it is the duty of the Government to take into consideration all aspects of the national life.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, would it not be reasonable to think that the ship owners probably lost even more money by the very great short-falls in Argentine exports to us over a very considerable 643 period, with effects on British production and contracts with other meat-supplying markets? I can see the point that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, raises about this difficulty. I am not against the consideration of bulk contracts, but the levelling out process must, at least to a great part, be the levelling out of production in the Argentine.
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, in his original reply the noble Lord used the words "urgent problems". Would he not agree that it would have been far better had the Government foreseen these problems, as many other people did, and prevented them from becoming urgent by taking action, preferably along the lines of long-term contracts suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth?
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one more question? Will he raise with his right honourable friend this very serious problem that arises? It is not the levelling out and long-term contracts which are objected to: it is the arbitrary cutting off, practically completely, at almost a moment's notice, so leaving the ship-owner a short-fall which he can ill afford to sustain.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, first of all, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Walston, I do not agree with the premise from which he started. All I will say is that matters of that kind are certainly going to be brought into the considerations that I mentioned in the course of my original reply. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, is rather giving us the impression that this trade has stopped completely, but I think I ought to say to him that this year there will be about the same amount of Argentine beef imported as in 1960, and rather more than was imported during the two years in between. It is, therefore, not quite right to say that the traffic has been completely cut off.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, I am sorry the noble Lord has said that, because it tempts me to ask him to take into consideration the fact that the year he quoted was about the worst year of the, last ten for these imports, and that, whereas the average for the years 1956 to 1962 was 235,000 644 tons, for the next six months the figure will drop to 60,000 tons.
§ LORD CHESHAMI am sorry, my Lords, but I did not quite follow the second part of the noble Lord's question.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHThe average yearly amount of chilled beef imported into this country from 1956 to 1962 was 235,000 tons. For this next six months the figure would drop to 60,000 tons. I will admit that in the first six months the tonnage is higher than 60,000; but now the ships will not be able to be filled in any way with their specialised cargoes of chilled beef.
§ LORD CHESHAMYes, my Lords, I am bound to agree with the noble Lord that while tonnage over the year remains comparable it will be somewhat differently divided.