§ 2.46 p.m.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many suitably qualified applicants were dealt with by the Universities Central Council on Admissions, prior to the start of the academic year 1963–64; how many were found places in universities and other institutions of higher education; and how many were unable to be placed.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH)My Lords, I understand that the Universities Central Council on Admissions will report on this year's operations early next year. The Council is responsible 1204 to the universities, who are themselves the judges of which applicants are suitably qualified for admission to the courses of study each wishes to pursue.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, may I ask who pays for the Council? I am not criticising the Council in any way, nor, indeed, ungrateful to the noble Earl for his Answer, because I am glad that the information is to be given in January and, I take it, will be given publicly. Who pays for the Council?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, this is, of course, the first occasion on which I have had the privilege of replying to your Lordships, and perhaps I may be proved wrong. As I understand it, this Council is paid for out of funds from Her Majesty's Government, but in fact it is not the Government who are responsible for their operations.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, is it not the fact, however, that the Government already know that it was not possible to find the number of places required for qualified candidates to get into universities on this occasion?
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHThere are no implications at all.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHWe have heard from Mr. Harold Wilson the attack which he made on the Council, and I feel that I am here to defend it. This Council was set up after long negotiations between the universities. It represents a great step forward in providing a clearing-house for applications for admissions, and the attack and implication which the noble Earl has made in supporting the criticism made by Mr. Harold Wilson in another place is, I feel, unwarrantable. The Council has itself denied all responsibility for the allegation which has been made.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, the noble Earl has replied by an attack upon me and Mr. Harold Wilson to a question which did not require that sort of answer at all. I asked whether Her Majesty's 1205 Government knew, and know now, that hundreds of students who were qualified could not obtain places in the universities because there was no accommodation available to them. That is the question I want answered.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHIt is about time you withdrew your last answer to me, which was profoundly rude. Not a very good beginning.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, I am not hostile in any way to this particular body, nor was my question intended as a hostile question. I happen to admire the work of this body very much indeed. I am interested to find, however, that the noble Earl is prepared to defend it, but not to answer about it. This is a peculiar and a new constitutional doctrine, which I think we shall be enlarging upon in a few minutes.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHNo doubt we shall, my Lords. I apologise to the noble Earl if he felt that in my first answers to Questions I went beyond what I should have done. I apologise for that, but I feel that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and the noble Earl, will agree that it is an indispensable part of academic freedom that entrance procedures should be in the hands of the universities. The Government warmly welcome the decision of the universities to establish clearing-house arrangements, but have always made it clear that they are a university responsibility.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, this is a very simple question which has been complicated by the noble Earl. The simple question is: how many suitable applicants were there for entry to the universities, and how many were not able to find places? The noble Earl said that we must wait for publication. Are the figures available now? If they are, cannot we have them?
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, I really must correct a misunderstanding. We are not suggesting that the universities should not be responsible for their entrants. In fact, it is our wish that they should be responsible for their entrants. 1206 I do not think the noble Earl should impute that motive to our Question.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, could the noble Earl assure us that those students who qualified for a university education and who have not been accommodated this year will be offered a place next year?
THE DUKE OF ATHOLLMy Lords, could I ask my noble friend whether all these applicants were suitably qualified in the opinions of the universities concerned, or just in the opinion of the Central Council on Admissions?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl, as the question was directed to Her Majesty's Government and we accept that the Council itself may not be able to give these particular figures, whether it is not a fact that the Ministry of Education itself must be aware of the position? As the Question has been directed to Her Majesty's Government, may I ask whether the facts are not available to Her Majesty's Government? If the Minister has not got them now and we were to put down a Question for answer next week, could he give us a reply then?