HL Deb 05 December 1963 vol 253 cc1009-11

3.9 p.m.

LORD COLYTON

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consult with the Government of Malaysia with a view to calling for a meeting of the Security Council to consider recent acts of aggression committed by, or on behalf of, the Government of Indonesia by land, sea or air against the Federation of Malaysia.]

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, as the noble Lord has recognised in the phrasing of his Question, it is primarily for the Malaysian Government to decide whether or not to bring formally to the attention of the United Nations the unneighbourly acts committed against Malaysia in the course of Indonesia's so-called "confrontation policy". Her Majesty's Government are of course in close and continuing touch with the Government of Malaysia about the situation generally.

LORD COLYTON

But, my Lords, we are vitally concerned in this matter as there are British troops there defending the Malaysian frontier. Is it not time that more positive action should be taken to curb Indonesian aggression against Malaysia, preferably by international action? Is there not a real danger of actual warfare breaking out along that frontier, or, indeed, on some of the islands where Indonesian war vessels have been landing and attacking British troops, and I believe Gurkhas as well, quite recently? Is it not really vitally important for us to get a team of United Nations' observers in the territory and along the frontier as quickly as possible?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I do not dissent from what my noble friend said in the first part of his supplementary question. But really this is a question of timing, and I do not think the time has yet come for us to advise, or to take this question to the United Nations in company with the Malaysian Government.

LORD HENDERSON

My Lords, will the noble Lord the Leader of the House give special attention to the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, as to the desirability of getting United Nations' observers on to this particular area which can become a most dangerous point where events may even lead to war? Is it not sufficiently urgent to call for special attention and for consultation with the Malaysian Government?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, we are discussing these matters with the Malaysian Government all the time. The specific question which was asked me was, whether or not we would take this issue to the United Nations. As I said in answer to an earlier supplementary question, I think this is a matter of timing and we do not think this is the right moment.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, does that mean that in fact the Malaysian Government has raised with Her Majesty's Government the question as to whether it should not be submitted? Has it asked for it to be submitted to the United Nations?

LORD CARRINGTON

No. It is, of course, primarily for the Malaysian Government, and they do not wish to take it to the United Nations at present.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

My Lords, if the Malaysian Government raise this question of aggression against them—because it is aggression—will the Government give the Malaysian Government support, in the Security Council or otherwise? Does the noble Lord not think that we are in danger that smaller countries can get away with aggression wholesale, or at any rate extensively, whereas there would be a first-class row if it were done by ourselves or another big nation.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I hope I did not sound too unsympathetic about all this. I agree very much with the tone of the questions which have been asked; and, of course, we are wholehearted in our support of the Malaysian Government. But I think it would be wrong for me to answer hypothetical questions at this time.

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, is it not the fact that the Prime Minister in Malaysia said that he would welcome United Nations observers on the Indonesian frontier?

LORD CARRINGTON

Of course there were United Nations observers during the transfer of power.

LORD OGMORE

But now.

BARONESS HORSBRUGH

My Lords, would it not be impossible to have these observers unless Malaysia is willing to take the matter to the Security Council?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, this is Malaysian territory, and it is a matter for the Malaysian Government. I think that the Malaysian Government, which is in close consultation with ourselves, will no doubt consider what time is right for us to approach the United Nations, or to ask United Nations observers to come on to the frontier.

LORD COLYTON

My Lords, as I said before, we are deeply involved in this matter. Will my noble friend bring to the attention of the Malaysian Government the views which have been expressed in the House to-day, so that they know how we at least feel about it?

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, since the presence of British troops in the area has been referred to, may I ask whether they are directly under the control of the British Government or under the control of the Malaysian Government?

LORD CARRINGTON

They are ultimately, of course, under the control of the British Government.