OVERLOADING OF PRIVATE MOTOR CARS (Hansard, 24 April 1963)

§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM)
My Lords, the Court was concerned with construing a clause in an insurance policy and it was in this connection that it found the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations, 1955, to be of no great assistance. Regulations 73 and 86 have been found in practice to provide a sufficient basis for prosecution in cases where an excessive number of passengers have 1203 been carried in private motor cars. My right honourable friend does not consider it practicable to lay down specific maximum numbers of passengers to be permitted in different motor cars.

§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. He will, I know, appreciate that I was in no way attacking anything the learned Judge in this case said. As the noble Lord said, it was a civil case. But there is one observation to which, if he will permit me, I should like to draw his attention. The learned Judge said: The opposite contention was that the condition of the vehicle did not include any consideration of the use to which it was being put or the manner in which it was used. It had been pointed out that on the evidence this vehicle, even overloaded as it was, might have been driven safely if it had been kept down to a speed appropriate to its load. This is the vehicle that had nine men in it. Does the noble Lord not agree that in this context that underlines that what is overloading is still a matter of opinion and not a matter of fact?
Might I also ask the noble Lord this, for his consideration and the consideration of his right honourable friend? If it is practicable to fix the maximum number of passengers carried in a public service vehicle, in a hackney carriage or in a taxicab, and it is illegal to carry more than that number, why is it so difficult to bring the same thing into the realms of an ordinary, private motor car?

§ LORD CHESHAM
My Lords, the answer to that is that public service vehicles and taxis are purpose-built to a specification for their particular purpose, whereas private cars are not, and may possibly be subject to modification. I would ask the noble Lord just to think of the complications involved: the size of people the number of children to be regarded as equivalent to one adult, what their age limit should be—and, furthermore, an adult of what size? There is also the fact that, should the legal load be, say, four people for a motor car, to put them all in the front seat would be just as dangerous as anything else. One runs into such difficulties and I really do not think they are soluble.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, if there is this difficulty in laying down the number of people who should be carried in a car, I wonder if the noble Lord would consider whether there could not be some rule in regard to the number of persons who may be on the front seat. I am sure the noble Lord would agree with me that, where there are crowded in the front seat of the car three or sometimes four people, the driver is very much restricted in his driving. If a regulation cannot be made in regard to the car as a whole, would the noble Lord consider the question of limiting the number on the front seat?

§ LORD CHESHAM
My Lords, we should be glad to consider anything which would be conducive to the progress of safety in this matter. I think your Lordships are well aware that it would be quite wrong for me to comment in any way on what was the decision of the Court, but I would certainly agree that it would be most unfortunate if there were any public misunderstanding in this matter which led members of the public to believe that loads of that kind were legitimately possible or desirable, or in fact would do anything other than work against safety.

§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH
My Lords, the noble Lord knows that the number of small motor cars is increasing by leaps and bounds, and he will also appreciate that as the number of small motor cars increases in this country so will the overloading. Let us take time by the forelock, and do not let us get into the condition we are in with goods-carrying vehicles. I know the noble Lord is very keen on this subject, as are all your Lordships; road safety is a pre-eminent consideration with us all. Has the noble Lord ever heard the old-fashioned little saying: Where there's a will there's a way"?

§ LORD CHESHAM
Yes, my Lords, I certainly have heard that, and I must say that we shall be very glad to find the way. It would be wrong for me not to point out to your Lordships that the approach to that way seems fraught with great difficulty.

§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH
My Lords, could I ask whether the Minister is actively consulting 1205 on this point with the insurance companies, who may have considerable liabilities unless there is some official backing?

§ LORD CHESHAM
My Lords: not that I am aware of; but I should naturally be most pleased to consider the suggestion that the noble Earl has made.

§ LORD CONESFORD
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that it is extremely probable that the insurance companies will find their own remedy having regard to the decision in this case?

§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ LORD CHESHAM
My Lords, I am informed that the driver was not prosecuted for any offence against the Road Traffic Acts because the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis found no sufficient grounds for the institution of proceedings.

§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH
My Lords, is not that a very strange conclusion to come to? Here is a car which carries nine persons, travelling down a steep hill; it crashes into a motor car at the bottom, killing the driver and wrecking the car. And it is said that there is no ground for proceedings under the Construction and Use Regulations, which the noble Lord has just told your Lordships are absolutely sufficient. There was a prima facie case of dangerous driving; there was a prima facie case of the driver not having proper control over his car; and there was a prima facie case that the car was overloaded. Here your Lordships spend the best part of your time trying to prevent accidents, and this is the support that your Lordships get from the police force.

§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)
My Lords, I am sure that the House will have taken notice of the Question which the noble Lord asked; but I think the noble Lord will bear with me when I say that my noble friend has made it plain that the institution of prosecutions does not in any way rest with Her Majesty's Government.

§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH
My Lords, would not the noble Viscount the Leader of the House agree with me that it is the prime responsibility of Parliament to see that the laws that it passes are properly observed and enforced?

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM
No, my Lords.?