§ 2.40 p.m.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will pay special attention to the Minority Report of the Joint Sub-Committee on Safety of Drugs, which represents the views of the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain, before establishing any non-statutory organisation which might be considered by the Pharmaceutical Society to be ineffectual.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HEALTH (LORD NEWTON)My Lords, my right honourable friends the Health Ministers have noted the minority view, but do not agree that a voluntary scheme will be ineffective or that action should await legislation. As I informed the House on April 4, the Government have in mind a review of the law relating to drugs generally with a view to legislation.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, does the noble Lord realise that the plan suggested by the Cohen Commit- 972 tee is just what the drug industry want? It will preserve all their rights to make as much profit as they can without submitting any of their products to clinical test. Does the noble Lord know that the Pharmaceutical Society, which has a high ethical standard, has said that there are so many loopholes in the voluntary scheme that we shall have simply a return to the position which existed before thalidomide—a position, in fact, from which we have not moved? He surely cannot ignore an organisation which has as its secretary a Member of another place, an organisation which knows all about this subject but does not make, as I have said, the unholy profits of the drug industry. May I point out that in all these months other countries have been introducing legislation on the matter? I have put Question after Question, and I have been told to await this Report, and after months of labour this miserable little mouse has appeared.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, I think the answer is that, valuable though their advice is, the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain are not the Government of Great Britain, and we accept the views of the Majority Report. I would point out to the noble Baroness that she has, as she has just told your Lordships, complained about delay before the Government reached any decision. If we were to accept the recommendation of the Minority Report there would be still further delay.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, further to the point my noble friend has raised, is it not a fact that the Majority Report has the weakness that it favours the bad drug industry of Britain? The good drug industry, the progressive people, who really test their goods will in fact be penalised under the Majority scheme, as compared with the bad people who do not bother to test their drugs properly. Is that not the weakness of it? Is not the right thing to do to accept both the Majority and the Minority Reports and get ahead with legislation as quickly as possible in order to implement the Minority Report, which, I am sure, we all accept does need legislation?
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)My Lords, I do not think we can debate the 973 Report by question and answer. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, began his question with the words, "Is it not a fact …?." The answer is, it is an opinion.
§ LORD TAYLORIs it not a fact that what I said is a fact, is a fact?
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House, in his capacity of Minister for Science, whether this is going to be the only country in the world, apart from, let us say, the emergent territories in Africa, where drugs which have never been subject to a clinical test are still to be put on the market?—because if we leave the position now without accepting the Minority Report, that will be the situation.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, this has nothing to do with me as Minister for Science because it is a political judgment which the noble Baroness is seeking to pass upon the matter. Secondly, she is persisting in debating something which can and, I hope, will be debated, but not, I trust, by question and answer.
§ LORD LINDGRENBut, surely, my Lords, a question of human life is not a question of political judgment; it is a question of correct organisation in order that there shall be public protection.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, what the noble Baroness put to me was not a question of human life, but of whether this country would be the only country in the world to conform to certain specifications.
§ LORD TAYLORIs it not one of the delights of this House that we are entitled to have something which, although couched in interrogative form, nevertheless resembles a debate arising out of Questions?
LORD REAMy Lords, the noble Baroness indicated that it was a very long time before this small mouse came into evidence. Could the Minister perhaps tell us the normal period of gestation of a mouse?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I shall have to inquire of the Agricultural Research Council.