§ 2.35 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOKMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of a proposal to demolish part of the Old Court House in the Market Square, Woodbridge, against the advice of the Royal Fine Art Commission and the Georgian Group, and what action they propose to take.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government is aware of this proposal. He is advised that the building is not of outstanding architectural value and that, while its loss would damage the sense of enclosure of the Market Square, all that is proposed is the setting back of one corner of it in the interests of traffic flow and pedestrian safety. He considers that this is a matter essentially of local concern which is best dealt with by the local authorities, who can be relied upon to take fully into consideration the interests of amenity. He does not therefore propose to intervene.
§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOKMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he has read the Report of the Royal Commission on Ancient Monuments, and seen how many monuments which are of national interest have been destroyed through lack of local action? Also does he realise that this is only a temporary expedient and some other provision for traffic must be made, and, when this has been done, this building will have been mutilated?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, the answer to the first question asked by the noble Earl is, Yes, I have read the Interim Report of the Royal Commission. The answer to the second question is that there is a difference of opinion on this matter. But we consider that in a matter of this sort the local planning authority, who have wide powers here, should have the final say.
§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOKMy Lords, may I ask the Government to consider calling it in?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, it is precisely that which my right honourable friend is reluctant to do because he feels that this is a local matter and best decided by the local authority.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, is not such destruction of market squares for road widening both stupid and deplorable? Cannot the Government, for once, pay some attention to the advice of the Royal Fine Art Commission?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, here again, I would reply to my noble friend that the East Suffolk County Council are, of course, fully aware of the views of the Royal Fine Art Commission, and, indeed, of the local preservation bodies. But I would remind my noble friend that there are 80,000 buildings which are scheduled Class II in this country, and I think that if my right honourable friend were to intervene and call in a decision whenever one of these buildings was affected the whole planning machinery and machinery of inquiry would become totally clogged up.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that it is not the merit of this particular building, but the merit of the Market Square, that is in question?
EARL JELLICOEWhen my noble friend reads the reply I originally gave he will see that that is very much in the mind of the Government.
LORD FARINGDONMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Earl is not aware that this is the kind of case which is causing deep anxiety in the country in respect of many provincial cities? Is he not aware that, in fact, there is nothing to be said for assisting traffic to get into the market places of such towns, and that this is a bad example of transport planning?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am fully aware of the national interest in matters of this sort, and I am glad that there is a great and growing interest in these matters. However, I would suggest that in local matters local authorities must be given a due discretion.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware of the great anxiety which exists all over the country at the loss of these precious things which we possess, and which make this country what it is—namely, an attractive place for people to come to and for people living here to visit? While I sympathise with his view that local authorities should be given the opportunity of forming a judgment of their own, may I ask him whether he is aware that the Ministry exists in order to make quite sure that local authorities do not go wrong? Will he undertake to make representations to his right honourable friend that he should keep an eye on this matter and ensure that the decision is the right one?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, as I hope I have already made clear, I am aware of the great interest in matters of this sort, and I am sure that my right honourable friend will wish to give careful attention to the views which have been ventilated in supplementaries in your Lordships' House this afternoon.
§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOKMy Lords, if I put down another Question, will the noble Earl then give me a considered reply after further consideration?
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, does the noble Earl not think that if on this occasion the Government and his right honourable friend did intervene it would make local authorities more careful the next time they have to deal with a market square?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I really do not wish to pronounce on this question, but I have no reason to believe that the county council concerned have not given, and are not giving, this matter a great deal of anxious consideration.