HL Deb 04 April 1963 vol 248 cc641-4
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is their intention to appoint a director as head of the secretariat of the Consumer Council as recommended in the Report of the Molony Committee; if this appointment will be made from the Civil Service; and when they will be in a position to make a statement on the matter.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD DERWENT)

My Lords, as I have already informed the noble Lady on April 1, my right honourable friend has appointed as director to the Consumer Council an Under-Secretary in the Civil Service who has been seconded to the Council for this purpose. The officer selected for this important post has been appointed for her personal and administrative abilities, and for her wide experience in consumer protection matters and knowledge of industry and commerce.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

My Lords, we seem to be having a new method of Parliamentary procedure by which Questions are answered three days in advance of the date named on the Order Paper. Does the noble Lord recall, prior to Question Time on Monday, asking me whether I intended leaving to-day's Question on the Order Paper, to which I replied, "Yes", and he then answered it on that particular day? However, reverting to the Answer—I am glad that he finds it amusing; I thought it was quite a new departure—may I ask the noble Lord (and I am speaking on the principle, not the merit) whether the Government really consider that the best way of ensuring the independence of a Consumer Council is to appoint as its director a civil servant seconded to it from the Department with which it will chiefly have to deal?

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, the noble Baroness will recollect that when I mentioned this appointment the other day in answering another Question the announcement had already been made elsewhere. I should have thought that she would be very glad to have it confirmed before she had actually asked her Question. I have now answered it for the second time. As regards the other suggestion of the noble Baroness, I find it a most extraordinary one. As I understand the suggestion, it is this: that a very senior civil servant, who has been chosen for an important public post for her ability and knowledge of consumer protection, because she has been at the Board of Trade before she takes up this job, is not likely to do her job properly.

I can only assume that the noble Baroness has little experience of senior civil servants, and none at all of Miss Ackroyd.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

My Lords, the noble Lord is wrong in both respects. But if I can go on to the next point I want to ask the Government—because I have no intention of being equally unpleasant—may I ask him why this post was not advertised, and why, upon being appointed to it, the person concerned did not resign from the Civil Service, but was merely seconded? May I, lastly, ask him whether it is true that this director will be a member of the Consumer Council herself, as I have seen reported?—because that would seem to be a most unusual proceeding.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, answering the last question first, the answer is, Yes. The House will remember that the Molony Committee Report recommended that the director of the Consumer Council should have an appreciable status and have contact with Government Departments at Under-Secretary level. Those were the recommendations of the Report. It says absolutely nothing about advertising, and my right honourable friend considered it essential to appoint the person he considered most suitable for this important post. I only hope that the noble Baroness is not doing her best to try to make things as difficult as possible for Miss Ackroyd.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

My Lords, may I ask the Minister, please, whether he can tell me of any other comparable councils where the director, who is a paid servant of the council, is a member of the council?—because that is causing considerable concern among industrial organisations.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, if the noble Baroness, who knows the Molony Report very well indeed, will recall it to her mind, she will remember that that Report said that there was no other similar council in existence.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, the noble Lord must not treat this matter in such a high and mighty manner. This Parliament is established in order that Members can ask questions of Ministers, and we expect Ministers to come to this House and answer in a reasonable manner. As one, incidentally, who has been accustomed to the Civil Service, my noble friend has asked in a very reasonable manner whether, if an independent organisation is set up, which gives an opportunity to aggrieved consumers to question the conduct of a Government Department, it is wise for that independent organisation to be served by a civil servant who has been seconded from a Government Department which will be criticised. I have no feeling about the matter, but looking at this absolutely objectively it seems to me rather surprising—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Speech !

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

The noble Lord will not interrupt. The noble Viscount the Leader of the House speaks so much himself, perhaps he will allow somebody else to finish a question.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Order, order!

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

I should have thought it would be putting the civil servant in rather an uncomfortable position if she is asked to answer criticisms of her own Department.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, I have nothing to add on the second part of the noble Baroness's question. As regards her opening comments, I shall take care to model myself on the noble Baroness when she was Minister of Food.

LORD TAYLOR

My Lords, with the greatest respect, and not in any way in a hostile manner, may I ask whether it is wise to make these appointments without advertising them? How can the Minister know who is available unless a public appointment of this sort is advertised? Time and again it happens that a post is filled by the Civil Service, and I should have thought it was most undesirable. It means not a strengthening of Ministerial power, but a strengthening of Civil Service power, which is just what I should have thought noble Lords opposite did not want.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, I have noted what the noble Lord has said. My right honourable friend does not agree with him.

LORD TAYLOR

Well, I think "he better had".