§ 3.5 p.m.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have studied the booklet Central Government Aid to Sport and Physical Recreation in Countries of Western Europe of which copies have been supplied to them; and if they have any comments to make on the position in so far as this country is concerned.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE LORD DERWENT)My Lords, this valuable booklet has been read with great interest, and the review it gives of Continental practice, which has hitherto been lacking, wall materially assist consideration of this question.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, not knowing the background of the noble Lord in sporting matters, I would not know whether he realises how great is the disappointment among sporting organisations and, I think, on both sides of this House at this continued delaying action on the part of the Government. May I ask him whether he is aware that what really concerns us all—it is not only a question of this side of the House—is that when we compare what is being done in Britain with what has actually been undertaken in countries of Western Europe, there seems in this country to be no clear understanding and realisation of what can be done by the Central Government to foster and encourage the drive of local authorities and to underpin the voluntary efforts of sports organisations from local to national level? I hope he feels able to 1298 bring that to the attention of his noble friends.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I think it is rather difficult to compare what Central Governments in Europe are spending on sport with what is being spent here, because in this country in regard to capital expenditure a lot of it is done through the education authorities. This year capital expenditure is going to be £18 million. If you compare that with what the French Government are giving, for instance, you find the French Government are providing nothing under that heading; so it is somewhat difficult to compare one with the other. In spite of what the noble Baroness has said, we realise that this is an important matter. But it is a fairly complicated one and I very much regret that I can add nothing at this moment to what I said to her on November 6.
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that when one travels on the Continent one finds that practically every small town has its sports stadium, yet in this country we have many counties with neither a closed swimming pool nor a cinder running track?
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, perhaps the rather sweeping statement by the noble Lord can be answered by saying this: will he also take account of the swimming pools and the tracks there are as part of the educational establishments of this country?
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHESTERMy Lords, in view of the fact that this pamphlet shows that financial aid can be given from Government sources without vitiating the essentially amateur spirit of sport, will Her Majesty's Government regard this pamphlet as an additional argument for the setting up of a Sports Development Council?
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I dealt on November 6 with the question of setting up the Council. But I would point out to the right reverend Prelate that much of the finance in Western Europe is provided by the Governments through the running of pools, and whether the right reverend Prelate in act wants us to do that I do not know.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, without wishing to be rude to the noble Lord, may I ask him whether he realises that this really is a smokescreen on the part of the Government to make it sound as though all this money is being spent? Is he aware that it is not being spent on the sporting facilities, and the argument that it is done through education does not hold water? Is he further aware that there are only three countries in Western Europe where the pools are not used to encourage sport and that this country is one of them?
§ LORD DERWENTI am afraid I do not quite understand the supplementary question put by the noble Baroness. She refers to "this money". I do not know whether she is referring to pools money or money spent through the educational authorities, or what money. We are, I quite agree, one of the countries who do not provide money from our pools, but I would ask the noble Baroness to remember that the pools coupons and pools profits are already taxed.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYYour Lordships are very generous, but if the noble Lord would allow me to say so, I cannot allow him to get away with his statement. I regret it if I muddled him. What I am asking is this. Does he realise that the people interested in sport in this country do not believe that the argument of the Government is a good one, when they try to ride off on each occasion with the statement, "We spend as much as any country in Western Europe and do it through education". It is just not true.
§ LORD DERWENTNo, I do not realise that at all.