§ 2.35 p.m.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government when they expect to reach a decision on the negotiations now being conducted with the National Farmers' Union on the suggestion that information should be provided showing the difference between prices obtained by farmers and prices charged in the shops.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD)My Lords, I do not know of any negotiations with the National Farmers' Union, but this is a subject we are always prepared to discuss. There have been exchanges of view between the Union and the Ministry on whether additional sources of information can be developed, and my right honourable friend is quite ready to consider the practicalities of this. Such information would, however, be by no means simple to obtain and my right honourable friend does not accept that it would be indispensable for making further progress in the improvement of agricultural marketing.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that that is a considerable advance on the attitude taken up by the Government during my ten years in another place, and that we welcome such advance? 1098 But may I ask him whether he would agree that, as Mr. Harold Woolley, the President of the National Farmers' Union, said last week, I think on November 15, such information would be valuable to the producer, the distributor and the consumer; and can he tell the House when such negotiations are likely to commence?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I think I understand the point the noble Lady has in mind. The President of the National Farmers' Union raised this matter (the noble Lady is quite right) with my right honourable friend in May of last year as one of several items, and my right honourable friend then replied in the same terms as I have today. The matter has subsequently been raised with the Department again only in the past few days. The Union have been offered in the first place a review of the existing statistical information.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, may I in a last question ask the noble Lord whether he feels that this information, if it does become available, can be given to the general public? Is he aware that those of us who have pursued this matter for some time merely wish to know why there is the wide discrepancy between the money received by the producer and the prices paid in the shops?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, the noble Lady will be the first to realise that what she has posed there is an enormously wide point which cannot be answered by question and answer. In fact, I think I am right in saying that the discrepancy is no greater than it is in most highly developed countries. But, naturally, the question the noble Lady has put to-day will be followed up.
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, would the noble Lord consider a second possibility? While I realise the difficulty of showing in a shop the prices which are being paid to the producer, because the prices vary, might it not be possible instead to put the per centage by which the producer's prices have risen or fallen during a given period, so that the housewife realises the position, assuming that the price in the shop remains the same but possibly the prices to the consumer or producer have risen or fallen in that period?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I am not aware of the precise type of statistical information which is available and will be shown to the N.F.U., but, naturally, I shall draw the attention of my right honourable friend to the noble Lord's question and find out whether this particular type of information is available.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, perhaps it would be interesting to have an immediate, little, inside Government investigation, say, into the price of bread, since English milling wheat is being sold ex-farm at 16s. 6d. a cwt. and the price of bread is very high.
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, the noble Viscount has mentioned a particularly complicated matter. The processing that goes on between wheat leaving the farm and the loaf reaching the counter is considerable and complicated.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, the noble Lord has referred to existing statistical information. Does he mean existing within his Department already? If so, what difficulty can there be in making that available?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I have said that a review of that statistical information is going to be made available to the National Farmers' Union.
§ LORD TAYLORAnd to the public?
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord why the National Farmers' Union, representing the producers, are going to have this information and the public as a whole are not going to have it?
§ LORD TAYLORIs this an official secret?
§ LORD MORRISON of LAMBETHMy Lords, surely the noble Lord ought to answer the point which has been raised by my noble friend and by the noble Lord on the Liberal Benches. This is a matter of vital importance. If the Government are going to get the information for which my noble friend has asked in the first Question, surely the public are entitled to know. Why should 1100 this be kept as a trade secret between the Conservative Government and the National Farmers' Union? Will the noble Lord not answer the question? Why are they hiding it?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I was hiding nothing. I was trying to answer—and I thought I had answered it, but apparently not sufficiently clearly—the earlier question of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore. The statistical information is very involved and very wide, and it would be extremely difficult to publish the whole of it, and not even very helpful. When it has been discussed with the National Farmers' Union, then we shall be at least a step ahead and we shall see what further practical steps may be advisable.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, will this information be available to Parliament?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I am perfectly ready to convey the noble Lord's wish, as I imagine it is, to my right honourable friend.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHIt is our right.