§ 3.18 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government—
- (a) what specific steps they propose to take to ensure that any fall in the prices for beef at the weekly markets will be fully passed on by the wholesale and retail beef traders for the benefit of the consumers, and
- (b) what effect upon the beef markets is likely to arise during the next twelve months due to the notice given to Her Majesty's Government by the Government of the Republic of Argentina that it proposes to raise their exports of beef to this country to about 300,000 tons.]
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, the Government have noted the statement made by the President of the National Federation of Meat Traders Associations that retail prices will be adjusted realistically and fairly in relation to their costs. If butchers follow this policy and if housewives shop competitively, what the noble Viscount wants to see happen will happen without any need for Government intervention. In regard to the second part of the question, the Argentine Trade Mission which recently visited this country indicated its long-term hopes for expanding its exports to the United Kingdom. There has, however, been no suggestion that Argentine exports of carcase meat to the United Kingdom in the next twelve months could rise to anywhere near 300,000 tons.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, with regard to the first part of the Answer, is the noble Earl not aware that the same kind of difficulty arose with consumers last year? Was it not on record that, whereas the market price had fallen, in some instances to about one-third, so that the Government grant for what they pay out in subsidy had to be considerably increased, yet it was understood, after the collection of information, that not more 1070 than 7 per cent. was passed on by the butcher to the customer? Is it not surely necessary to introduce the kind of control we had before, to make sure that the prices are fair to the consumer in spite of the operations of the market? With regard to the second part of the Answer, did not Dr. Carlos come here within the last week or so to give notice personally that they would be sending 300,000 tons of Argentine meat?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, experience in other countries has shown that to try to control retail prices effectively is extremely difficult. In any event, I really do not think that there is any evidence at the present time to warrant such a drastic measure. In reply to the other question, as I said in my original Answer, this was not said by the Argentine Trade Mission. The words actually used by, I think, Dr. Juni were that it was his salesman's hope to increase Argentine meat exports to the United Kingdom by 40 per cent. over the 1960 level. The 1960 figures were very much more than the figures for 1961. Imports were only about 150,000 tons in 1961 and some 200,000 in 1960. That does not imply a prospect of 300,000 tons. It was a salesman's hope.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, really it is time for some plain speaking from the shoppers. The noble Earl has just stated, with two "if s", that the housewife would get fair prices. Might I ask him whether he is aware that, really and truly, no shopper has ever been given a satisfactory reason by this Government why, when prices fall at the wholesale end, they should not equally fall for her in the shops? And might I also ask, as he quoted from the speech of the President of the National Federation of Meat Traders' Association, whether he has seen that section of Mr. Woodhouse's speech where he said that butchers resented the threat implied when Mr. Soames said that if meat prices did not fall this summer he would want to know why? Might I ask the noble Earl to give the House an assurance that the Minister will not be intimidated by this sort of remark by the butchers? And will he please take some steps to see that when prices fall at the dealer's end they will fall in the shops?—because shoppers have had enough of it.
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, I can give an assurance that my right honourable friend will not be intimidated by anybody. I cannot give an assurance that retail prices will follow in any precise ratio either upward or downward trends of wholesale prices. The only way to ensure that is by retail price control, with all its horrors.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, does the Minister know that, in the case of food and of house mortgages, prices always follow an upward but not a downward trend?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, while the noble Earl may be reluctant to have price control, would he not agree that it would very much help housewives to get fair prices if what were, in the view of the Government and the trade, the fair retail prices for the more popular joints of meat were published in the newspapers and on the radio on a weekly basis?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, in doing that the Government would surely be going a long way beyond their duty. What is a popular cut of meat? One can go from one end of any street to another and find different prices. This is a matter very largely in the hands of the housewife and the buyer.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, the noble Earl in his original Answer to my noble friend placed the whole responsibility of the holding of prices on the retailers and the housewife. Is he not aware that the dealers and wholesalers have a responsibility, and that in fact wholesale prices of meat have not recently fallen? Is he further aware that New Zealand cold-stored carcases were put up to 2s. a lb. by the threat of a dock strike, compared with 1s. 9½d., and they are still at that price? English lamb is 3s. now in Smithfield compared with 2s. 6d. last year. Will the noble Earl look into that aspect of the situation and give an answer on what real steps the Government are taking to ensure that drops in sale-ring prices are reflected in the price to the consumer?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, I cannot add to my original Answer. If butchers follow the policy which they have announced they will follow, and if the housewife shops with discretion, there should be no difficulty.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, are we to understand that the Government's policy of taking off the controls which they carried out, means that the subsidy can always cost the Government more and the consumer is not to get the result intended by the subsidy?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, is the Minister not aware that this reveals differentiation in Government policy? They are prepared to enforce a wage freeze on nurses, probation officers and public servants, but they are not prepared to enforce price controls on those who are exploiting those to whom the Government deny a reasonable standard of living?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, I think that the general enforcement of price control is a matter that should not be answered by myself in my capacity. It is a long way from the original Question on the Order Paper.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, as this is a very important matter and the noble Earl has said this is a matter for the housewife, would he tell the House precisely what is to be done by the housewife who finds herself served by only one shop within a convenient walking distance of her house? What precisely is she to do when she finds that the butcher is overcharging? Would he tell the House and tell the country?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, will the noble Earl not run away from the question I put to him? I made a very serious assertion that meat prices of cold-stored cuts in Smithfield were put up because of the dock strike. Will he not look into this question of the wholesale prices being charged now in glut conditions and compare them with the prices which were being charged in wholesale markets when the supply position was of greater scarcity? Will he tell the House what progress has been made by his Department in connection 1073 with inquiries into the relationship between sale-ring prices, wholesale prices and retail prices?
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy right honourable friend, as he said in his speech from which I think this question arises, is keeping a very close watch on this. He said that as Minister of Food he was going to watch this very carefully. Perhaps the second part of the Lord's question referred to the Committee set up under Sir Reginald Verdon-Smith, which has just started work and has very wide terms of reference. We all await its conclusions with interest.