HL Deb 16 May 1962 vol 240 cc650-9

3.48 p.m.

THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF DUNDEE)

My Lords, I am enormously tempted to intervene in the debate as originally arranged and reply to my noble friend, but, as things are, it is my duty to ask your Lordships' permission to interrupt the debate for a moment to repeat a statement which was made about ten minutes ago by my right honourable friend the Lord Privy Seal in another place on the progress of the Brussels negotiations. I hope it will be for the convenience of the House if on this occasion I confine myself to general matters and at the same time publish a further statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT, as my right honourable friend is doing.

At the Ministerial meeting in March, the Lord Privy Seal asked for a full report to be prepared jointly by officials, setting out the positions of both the European Economic Community and the United Kingdom on each point and the arguments put forward to support them, together with a summary of the work done by officials in exploring the differences that existed. This report, which is secret, was ready on time on April 14 and has since been studied by all the Governments concerned and the Commission. The purpose in asking for this progress report was to enable Ministers to see clearly where we had established common ground and what the gaps were between our positions after five months of analysis and explanation. This was essential before we could proceed to the point of considering satisfactory solutions to the problems involved in our application.

The principal task at the Ministerial meeting in Brussels last Friday and Saturday was to consider fully this progress report. This marked the end of the first or the exploratory stage of the negotiations. Over almost the whole field the issues have now been clearly defined, and the way is now open for the negotiation of solutions. As the Lord Privy Seal has said before in another place, these problems have been grouped under a number of headings. The main ones are the level of the common tariff, the request we have made for zero tariffs on a number of items, in particular certain raw materials, exports of industrial goods from the developed Commonwealth, the products of the Asian countries of the Commonwealth, the association of Commonwealth countries and dependencies under Part IV of the Treaty of Rome, Commonwealth exports of temperate foodstuffs, the particular requirements of British agriculture, and the Economic Union Articles of the Treaty of Rome. Ministers together examined each of these sections in turn.

To facilitate the task of finding solutions, the British delegation tabled immediately before the Ministerial meeting substantive proposals in three of these sections. First, they put forward a detailed plan for the treatment of exports of manufactures from Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Secondly, they submitted a general formula for the treatment of Commonwealth exports of temperate foodstuffs both in the short and the long term. Thirdly, they proposed detailed measures on various problems relating to United Kingdom agriculture.

At the Ministerial meeting, a large part of which was in restricted session, Ministers had a preliminary discussion on the substance of these problems. They instructed their officials to work out possible solutions within agreed terms of reference, which are to be reported to them in some sectors at their next meeting. In addition, the Ministers authorised the setting up of a working party to deal with the particular aspects of horticulture in both the United Kingdom and the European Economic Community.

The Chairman of the Ministers of the Community informed the Ministerial meeting that the delegations of the Six Member Governments had accepted the Lord Privy Seal's request, made at the March Ministerial meeting, and agreed that their objective should be to determine at least the main outlines of a possible agreement covering the whole field of problems by the end of July.

There will, of course, be a great deal of work still to be carried out after this stage has been reached. But we have now entered upon the stage of negotiations proper. Many of the problems to be solved are complex and difficult. The United Kingdom Delegation will pursue their solution with determination.

It was agreed that the next Ministerial meeting should be held in Brussels on the 29th and 30th of this month and a further four-day meeting from the 27th to the 30th of June.

[Following is the further statement referred to by the Earl of Dundee: Since the last report which was made on the Brussels negotiations on the 7th of March, the Deputies have continued to examine the Various problems to which I have referred. In particular, work has been concentrated on the problems of United Kingdom agriculture and Commonwealth exports of temperate foodstuffs to this country, and on the problems of the so-called Category 1 countries, India, Pakistani, Ceylon and Hong Kong. At the Ministerial Meeting at the end of March it was agreed that the Deputies should prepare a comprehensive report covering all the matters under negotiation and setting out the position reached by either side on each of them. As I have already said, consideration of this report was the main item on the agenda for the Ministerial (Meeting last week. The present position! with regard to the various problems under discussion is briefly as follows. The general level of the common external tariff. There is broad agreement on this but we have reserved the right to propose a review of the (position at the end of our negotiations. Raw materials and semi-manufactures for which we have proposed a zero tariff. The Six had put forward no specific suggestions in response to our proposals in this field before the Ministerial meeting, and after prolonged discussion it was agreed that Deputies should examine the items product by product and produce solutions, Manufactures from Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Before the Ministerial meeting we put forward proposals under which the application of the common external tariff to this trade would be deferred pending negotiations in GATT but that subject to the outcome of these negotiations and subsequent reviews the common, external tariff should, with perhaps some exceptions, apply to the whole of this trade by 1970. It was agreed at the Ministerial meeting that these proposals should be accepted as a basis for discussion, and that Deputies should report on the further consideration given to them at the Ministerial meeting on 29th-30t:h May. Category 1 countries (India, Pakistan, Ceylon and Hong Kong). A working party which has been studying the trade problems of these countries has so far concentrated mainly on textiles. It was agreed that the Deputies should complete their work on textiles, put forward proposals for dealing with the other items of trade and examine more thoroughly than has so far been possible the problems raised by Hong Kong's trade. Association and tropical products. A Working Party is already examining the problems of trade arrangements and tariffs for the main tropical products, and their report should be available for Ministers at their meeting on May 29–30. It was agreed that Deputies should carry further their consideration of other questions related to the association of Commonwealth countries with an enlarged Community. Commonwealth temperate foodstuffs. The proposals we put forward for discussion envisage specific arrangements for the Commonwealth countries concerned for specific periods and agreed machinery for reviewing how these arrangements should be extended thereafter having regard in particular to any international agreements which might be negotiated in the meantime. The Lord Privy Seal emphasised at the Ministerial meeting the very great importance we attach to this question and the fact that Commonwealth interests would not be met merely by agreement on transitional arrangements covering a specific period of years. It was agreed that the Deputies should give high priority to this matter with a view to submitting a report in time for consideration on May 29. United Kingdom agriculture. The two major problems in this field are:

  1. (i) annual review and guarantees to farmers in an enlarged Community;
  2. (ii) the length of the transitional period for the United Kingdom.
We have proposed amendments which we think will be necessary to certain of the agricultural regulations if the Community is enlarged by our accession and that of other European countries, and we have put forward views on the commodities for which the Community have not yet approved regulations. The Lord Privy Seal undertook at the Ministerial meeting to put forward further proposals as soon as possible on certain other commodities, notably meat and dairy products. All these matters will be further considered by Deputies before the next Ministerial meeting and in particular a Working Party has been authorised to consider the problems of United Kingdom horticulture. Economic Union provisions of the Treaty of Rome. Throughout the period discussion on these Articles and the regulations made under them continued with the Commission. So far, no serious problem has emerged and these questions were not discussed at the Ministerial meeting.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, we must, as usual, thank the noble Earl for giving us the statement which has been made in another place, but I must say that it tells us very little. I do not know what sort of real information to Parliament this progress report is expected to convey. I must say that when one picks up the London Times of yesterday, and on the political side of the matter reads the statement of M. Spaak that they would be quite prepared to scrap any idea of this country's going into the Common Market if they could come to an agreement with France on certain matters, one just wonders where you are going. People in the country are gradually beginning to feel that we are being kept in the dark; that at the end we shall meet with something like a fait accompli, and then you gamble the future of 23 million insured workers of this country. I really wish we could get some more information, stage by stage, from the Government. I feel very unhappy about it.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, I would at once agree with the noble Viscount that this statement which I have just made does not tell us very much in detail, but we thought it would be a good thing to keep Parliament informed of the stage which we have reached. May I just mention one incidental point to which the noble Viscount referred in his question? I am informed by the Belgian Government that M. Spaak was not correctly reported in The Times in the statement to which he has referred.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

Could we then have the correction? What was the statement he made? He certainly made some statement.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

That is for M. Spaak to make, and not for us, but I will do my best to find out what he did say, if the noble Viscount would like me to do that, and compare it with what was published, a copy of which I have not got at the moment.

LORD WILLIAMS OF BARNBURGH

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he could not have made a much briefer statement, such as, for instance, "Discussions continue on the Continent"?—for that is just about all we have heard this afternoon. When the noble Earl tells your Lordships that discussions are taking place, I would ask whether the time has not arrived when the Government might conceive the idea of perhaps letting your Lordships into the secret of what they are discussing.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, we are always in a dilemma about this. If we are not in a position to say anything detailed, we are always accused of withholding information; if we give all the information we have got, we are told that we have said nothing. If you have agreed on nothing, that is about all you can say. I entirely approve of the principle of short statements, but we felt that it would be right to inform Parliament of the general stage which the discussions have now reached.

LORD TAYLOR

My Lords, would the noble Earl get those responsible for this rather terrible piece of jargon to consult with the noble and learned Viscount, who has some very sensible ideas on clear English? This is about as unclear a piece of muddle as I have ever heard read out.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

I would only say that I have heard a great many worse pieces of jargon.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, I said that I felt very unhappy about this matter. We certainly ought to be thinking about a number of these subjects that are being considered. We get very little opportunity of information from the Government to be able to do it. I waited for weeks and weeks to get a copy in English of the Agreement which was arrived at on agriculture between the Six Members of the Community. I got the documents yesterday for the first time. When you come to look at them they tell you nothing. They really tell you nothing unless you are an expert on the staff of the Six and you have a large staff to go into a whole number of references to find out what it means. What we are being given is worth nothing at all to anybody who studies it. I must say that I am exceedingly disappointed at the manner in which the Government are treating the House.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, I am aware of the noble Viscount's impatience, which many of us share, about the translation of the document prepared by the Six on agriculture. I would only mention to your Lordships that if this statement on agriculture, drafted by the Six Members who are in the Community already, means nothing, how can you expect a country which is only applying to join, and which has not yet joined, to tell you anything?

LORD SILKIN

My Lords, in the statement which the noble Earl gave us, he referred to a report which was ready on April 14. This was a progress report prepared by the officers and which set out the position which had been arrived at, how far we were in agreement, and the extent of disagreement. Could we be told a little more about that? This House and the country has no idea as to how far we are in agreement with those with whom we are negotiating and the extent of the disagreement. All we are told in this statement is that a statement was prepared and ready on April 14.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, in order to anticipate the noble Lord's supplementary I took the liberty of inserting into my statement a word which was not contained in the Lord Privy Seal's statement, to the effect that this report of April 14 is secret and, therefore, I cannot refer to it. Whether if the secret were revealed to the noble Lord he would be much wiser is a matter I will not pursue.

LORD SILKIN

My Lords, I do not know who made it a secret or by whose decision it was made a secret, but is it not fundamental for our appreciation of the whole question that we should know what has been agreed between the parties and the extent of this agreement?

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

I do not think I can agree with that, my Lords. Surely the worst way of conducting negotiations is to publish to the world at every stage what you may have agreed on and what you have not yet agreed on?

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, it looks as if we shall have to wait for months and months while in all sections of industry there are thoughts that things may go this way, that way or the other way, and the country is being asked to go into a gamble in the future on the employment, happiness and business of everybody in it—a gamble which will not be made anything like clear to us until it is too late to do anything about it.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF HOME)

My Lords, I think my noble friend has really covered the ground as far as we can take it to-day. These matters are enormously complicated, as the noble Viscount has said himself, and we had to prepare a great many papers and give a great deal of preliminary consideration to the points which we would put into the conferences with the members of the Six. It was quite impossible really at that stage to make public the papers that we put in, or the negotiating positions. We are still at the point, as my noble friend's reply tried to make clear—and I think it was clear if the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, would read it again—where we are beginnig to discuss the substances of the different matters; in other words, what might be the ingredients of agreement on agriclture or upon the conditions that we require for the Commonwealth on the import of industrial goods, or, for stance, on matters concerning the import of foodstuffs. I do not know how long or how far on the next stage we shall able to report to the House before the next Ministerial meeting on May 29, but the Lord Privy Seal's hope is that we shall make substantial progress in the next few weeks; and certainly Parliment will not be asked to rubber stamp a fait accompli. Parliament will be given plenty of opportunity to discuss these matters, but we cannot really profitably discuss matters which have not been taken far in their points of substance at the present point of time.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILL BOROUGH

My Lords, may I ask whether the latter part of what the Foreign Secretary said means that Parliament will be given that opportunity before the end of July and before the Government have a conference with the Commonwealth Premiers? Because if you are going to come to a decision at the conference with the Premiers where does Parliament come in, then, for a decision?

THE EARL OF HOME

My Lords, we shall have to judge the progress that we can make, and nobody can forecast the moment on what points it will be useful and helpful to have Parliamentary discussions. But these are matters we shall discuss in the ordinary channels between the Opposition and the Government in both Houses.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILL BOROUGH

My Lords, I think the only thing I can say now is that we will make a closer study of the OFFICIAL REPORT which, I gather, will contain much more to-morrow morning than we have actually heard to-day. Is that so? Are we to have a much longer report in the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow than is contained in the noble Lord's statement to-day?

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, it may be a little longer, but I cannot promise that it will contain sufficient detail to satisfy the curiosity of your Lordships. With regard to the noble Viscount's last supplementary, may I just repeat what the Prime Minister said in another place on April 19? [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 658 (No. 101), col. 702]: Our duty is to continue negotiations to try to put the whole picture before the Commonwealth Prime Ministers and consider what they say, and, in the light of these discussions, to make … a decision which we shall announce and ask the House to support. The Government abide by the terms of the Resolution of another place of August 3, that no agreement will be entered into until it has been approved by the House and after full consultation with other Commonwealth countries, by whatever procedure may be generally agreed.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, that looks like another thing to be put before the House to decide upon in the autumn of this year. But in any case the Government will have made their decision, apparently entered into commitments, and the country at large will never have been consulted at all.

LORD BOOTHBY

It never is.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

On a matter of such completely revolutionary importance as this?

LORD BOOTHBY

I say, not unless you fight a general election, which you cannot do under our Constitution.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, I think we shall have to leave this statement from my noble friend and if we want to debate the matter later on at much greater length some kind of question should be put before the House. I suggest that we read to-morrow what my noble friend has actually said and that now we might proceed with our debate upon universities.