§ 3.11 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they propose to take on the Report of the Departmental Committee on the Probation Service (Cmnd. 1650).]
EARL BATHURSTMy Lords, the Government welcome the Report and share the Committee's appreciation of the part that the probation service has 630 to play in the penal system. The Committee's recommendations, however, require careful study and the Government are not yet in a position to make any statement of their conclusions on them. In particular, the Committee has proposed a major reassessment of the salaries of the service which will have to be examined in the light not only of the considerations set out in the Committee's report, but also of those set out in Cmnd. Paper 1626— that is on the economic situation. The recommendations on salaries are, as a first step, being referred to the appropriate negotiating bodies.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, will the noble Earl forgive me for saying that we find that reply somewhat uninspiring, while of course we join in welcoming the Report. Does the noble Earl realise that we on this side consider that this fine service has been undervalued for many years, and does he realise that we shall press for an early and urgent debate as soon as possible?
EARL BATHURSTI know full well all that is behind what the noble Earl has said, and I have no doubt that should the noble Earl wish a debate on this subject, it would be arranged through the usual channels.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, could the noble Earl give the House some idea as to when the Government, who have welcomed this Report, can give us the benefit, of their conclusions on it? Would it be a matter of a year, two years, or the normal period of gestation, five years?
EARL BATHURSTMy Lords, I trust that the period of gestation will be a lot shorter than five years; but I am certain that the noble Lord appreciates that there are other problems, as well as those of salaries which arise. For instance, there are the recommendations of the Aarvold Committee on Magistrates' Courts and the proposed redistribution of the London boroughs. Moreover, the Advisory Committee on the Treatment of Offenders are still considering after-care matters.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, realising all that, could the noble Earl give us some idea as to how long it is going to take?
EARL BATHURSTMy Lords, I do not think I could possibly give the noble Lord an idea, but I will tell him—and I am sure that the noble Lord will realise it—that, as I said in my Answer, we do attach importance to this Report.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, could the noble Earl say what is the bearing of the London boroughs on this point of probation? Is it another complication which the Government, without knowing it, have slid into? Could he tell us what is the bearing? It is no use asking the Leader of the House, because he does not know.
EARL BATHURSTMy Lords, I think that I made that fairly clear a little while ago to the noble Lord's friend, Lady Wootton of Abinger. It is all tied up with where and by whom the services of the existing probation officers in the London area should be run. Quite obviously, by 1965 or whatever the date may be when the areas are changed, different people may have to do those jobs and, presumably, different numbers of them.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, may I remind the noble Earl that the period of gestation on the Streatfeild Committee's Report was exceedingly brief, and was only a matter of months, if not, indeed, weeks. I would ask why the period should be any longer in this case when the urgency appears to be just as great, or greater.
EARL BATHURSTMy Lords, I should not like to say that the subject matter of the Streatfeild Report was a simpler type of animal: I do not think that would be right. But the Report certainly did come out very quickly. I am afraid that I cannot say how long it will take to produce the young stock from this animal.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, can the noble Earl say whether an earlier decision will be announced by the Government, with regard to the recommendations in respect of salaries and the expansion of the Service? Otherwise, it will not be a question of gestation— the Probation Service will simply fade away altogether.
EARL BATHURSTMy Lords, I think that is a repeat of the previous 632 question. I am afraid that I cannot answer the noble Lord on that point.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, may I assure the noble Earl that we on these Benches are much relieved that he is not regarding Her Majesty's judges as a simpler type of animal than the probation officers.
§ LORD PEDDIEMy Lords, would the noble Lord give some indication as to whether the view indicated in the Report, that there should be adequate training on the part of probation officers prior to taking up appointment, is accepted? Also, if that view be accepted, may I ask whether early steps will be taken to indicate basic minimum standards before entry into the Probation Service?
EARL BATHURSTMy Lords, this is a most important section of the Report. As I have already indicated to your Lordships, we have welcomed that Report and I see no reason why, broadly speaking, that particular section should not be welcomed as well.
§ LORD PEDDIEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether, in view of the favourable reply, that aspect of the Report could have early implementation?