HL Deb 15 March 1962 vol 238 cc322-31

3.52 p.m.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, I think it would be for the convenience of the House if I repeated now the statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place on Ministerial responsibility in respect of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland and its constituent territories. The statement is as follows:

"When the Federal Review Conference was adjourned in December, 1960, it was generally agreed that consideration of the future of the Federation should be deferred until further progress had been made with constitutional advance in the Rhodesias and Nyasaland. New Constitutions have now been established for the three territories and the time has come to take up again the problem of the future of the Federation and its relations with its constituent territories. The stage has thus been reached when our relations with the Federation and Southern Rhodesia and our responsibility for the two Northern Territories can appropriately be concentrated in the hands of a single Minister.

"While responsibility was divided between my right honourable friend the Commonwealth Secretary and my right honourable friend the Colonial Secretary, the two Ministers were apt to be regarded in some quarters as identified with conflicting sectional interests in the Federation; and for this reason it would not be practicable to secure the desired unification of Ministerial responsibility by transferring the functions of either to the other. Therefore, with the full agreement of the two Secretaries of State concerned, to whose patience and skill in dealing with the respective parts of this problem I should like to pay tribute, I have invited my right honourable friend the Home Secretary to undertake this responsibility. I am very grateful to him for agreeing to do so and for his readiness to add this task to the assistance he already gives me over a wide range of public duties.

"Accordingly, from the 19th of March, all the existing responsibilities of the Commonwealth Secretary for the Federation and for Southern Rhodesia, and those of the Colonial Secretary for Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, will be exercised by the Home Secretary. The staffs directly concerned with these matters in the Commonwealth Relations Office and the Colonial Office will be brought together in a single unit which will be wholly responsible to the Home Secretary. As part of his general responsibilities the Home Secretary will assume the ultimate responsibility at present exercised by the Colonial Secretary for members of Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service serving in the Protectorates. The undertakings given to these officers by Her Majesty's Government will continue unchanged.

"I am confident that this adjustment of Ministerial functions will improve our organisation for dealing with the problems confronting us now and in the period ahead, and will serve the best interests of all the inhabitants of the territories concerned.

"In conclusion I wish to emphasise that this new organisation does not imply any change in our policy towards the Federation or any of its constituent territories. In particular, it does not affect in any way the constitutional status of the Federal Government or of the Governments of Southern Rhodesia, Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland; nor does it affect in any way the Government's pledge to the peoples in the Northern Territories as set forth in the preamble to the Federal Constitution, which provided that 'Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland should continue, under the special protection of Her Majesty, to enjoy separate Governments for so long as their respective peoples so desire'. This was, and remains, a pledge binding on the Government as a whole."

My Lords, that is the statement given by my right honourable friend.

3.57 p.m.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lards, I am much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount for giving us a copy of the statement that the Prime Minister has made. It is obviously an exceedingly important statement at this critical stage in the negotiations which will have to go on in Central Africa. To me, it is one of the most extraordinary Prime Ministerial decisions that I have ever known in my long Parliamentary career. I just do not understand it. I know that the language in the statement concerning the different functions of the Commonwealth Secretary and the Colonial Secretary is carefully drawn; but there are few people, in this country at any rate, who will not consider that the Prime Minister has not been able to resolve difficulties between two of his Ministers at this crucial point. Certainly, having regard to the traditional functions of the Colonial Office in relation to the Protectorates as such—they are always mentioned in the documentary statements concerning the protection of Protectorates—there will be grave misgivings among the African population in the Central Federation in relation to all that has been going on out there for the last two or three years. From that point of view I regret this decision very much.

I should have thought that if there were any question of difference between the Colonial and the Commonwealth Departments it would be for the Prime Minister, with the assistance of his Cabinet colleagues, to consider the matter; and if the Ministers cannot agree there is the usual course open for either one of them to take. I just do not understand the situation at this moment. The noble Viscount will therefore forgive me for expressing my doubts about the whole situation.

In regard to the position of the Africans in the Protectorates, may I ask whether the Prime Minister's decision to make this change was in any way talked over with, or communicated to, the representatives of the African interests in the Protectorates? It would be interesting to know that, because we shall certainly hear a good deal more about it. I hope that I can be told about that. I am most anxious to make sure that there should not be any decrease in, or lack of, confidence as a result of the changes which are being made. I am bound to say that, in so far as it seemed necessary in the view of the Prime Minister to make this change, I personally note with some relief that the Minister chosen is the Home Secretary, although his Department seems an extraordinary one to link to a Colonial and Commonwealth matter. However, the Home Secretary is held in high esteem for a certainly liberal mind in dealing with racial problems. He has a long tradition from his early connection, through his father, with India and the like. I appreciate that point very much indeed; and in the language in which the Prime Minister refers to him in this statement, I think that is confirmed. I hope that this fact may bring some confidence to the Africans in these extraordinary circumstances. I hope that the kindness of the language about the Home Secretary in this statement may indicate that the Prime Minister is at last finding out upon whom his yoke will yet fall.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, without seeking to pursue the noble Viscount's last observation, which was hardly germane to this particular matter. I should like to thank him for the courteous references of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, which appear to go far to mitigate what I think was a mistaken feeling of apprehension and surprise in the earlier part of what he said. This is primarily a convenience in relation to Government machinery, the reasons for which I should have thought would be abundantly apparent from the statement I had made, when noble Lords have read it with the greatest care, as no doubt they will do in Hansard tomorrow.

I think the noble Viscount was quite mistaken in referring to the difficulties between two individual members of the Government. Indeed, if there had been such difficulties, I would have agreed with the noble Viscount that this would not have been an appropriate way to solve it. But, quite clearly, as the statement says, the respective responsibilities of the two Departments are difficult to justify at the present time, and I am sure that not only the Africans, for whom the noble Viscount quite rightly expressed concern, but all the inhabitants of the territories will gain from an improvement in administration. I do not think anybody, of any colour or race, need be apprehensive about this. This is an internal matter of the Government machine. In point of fact, as the statement says (as the noble Viscount will see when he reads it again), the most implicit pledge is contained in it. It contains no difference in policy, and sets out explicitly the pledge of protection which was contained in the Preamble to the Constitution. Being an internal government matter and not a matter of policy, it was not discussed either with Sir Roy Welensky or with the African leaders.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, I do not want to detain the House for more than a moment, but I do not yet understand what the noble and learned Viscount means by saying it is convenient at present. Could anything be more inconvenient than suddenly to change the Minister in the middle of all these negotiations?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, I should have thought nothing could be more inconvenient than having to deal with two Departments instead of one.

THE EARL OF SWINTON

My Lords, we shall no doubt have an opportunity of further considering this matter in a debate in a few weeks' time. I would put only one question, which perhaps is superfluous because I think it is probably clear from, and certainly implicit in, the statement made by the Leader of the House. As I understand it, this decision makes no change whatever in the powers or duties of Her Majesty's Government in regard to the Federation or any of the territories. Having said that, I must say, so far as I can judge, that this appears to me to be an extremely practical and sensible action on the part of the Government. That is my view, and I am not without some experience in dealing with both the Colonial Office and the Commonwealth Office, and also with all the problems of Federation, which I had the honour of piloting through this House.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

In the Home Office?

THE EARL OF SWINTON

I have acted as Home Secretary when the Home Secretary was away on some other enterprise. Let me remind the noble Lord, who has been a Home Secretary, that there is nothing the least unconstitutional or improper in this action. It does not require legislation or anything of that kind.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

I agree.

THE EARL OF SWINTON

It is inherent in the British Constitution that any Secretary of State can exercise the functions of any other Secretary of State, and it is a very convenient thing. That being so, from past experience I myself would think that there was every advantage in having one Secretary of State who can take charge of all these matters and look at all the problems of the Federation and of each of these territories as a whole. The first time I ever went across Canada, seeing the variety of different provinces, I remember saying that there appeared to be only one man in Canada who was able to see Canada as a whole and that was the Prime Minister.

I am sure this has nothing whatever to do with any differences between colleagues. It was quite plain when the last announcement was made that the Government were unanimous about it. I should have thought that there was every practical convenience in having one Minister dealing with all the aspects of this matter. And, of course, if we are going to have that situation it must be a very senior Minister in whom the Prime Minister and his colleagues—and, indeed, I think all of us—have great confidence. I would add this, if I may—and I am sure we can all agree on this—that it is characteristic of the public-spiritedness and great sense of public duty of the Home Secretary that he has agreed to undertake this very onerous and responsible task.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend for what he has said. He is quite correct in thinking that there is no change in the powers or duties of Her Majesty's Government in relation to this matter; nor, if there were, would this be the appropriate way of dealing with it. It is, as he says, a practical arrangement that has been undertaken for practical reasons and there is nothing unconstitutional about it; and I am glad to have the support of someone of his eminence and experience.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, could the noble and learned Viscount say whether this will involve any transfer of staffs from the two Ministries to the Home Office? Will Mr. Butler now be known as "Home and Colonial Secretary"?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord's first supplementary. As I have said, the responsibilities of the Commonwealth Secretary and of the Colonial Secretary in relation to the staffs of the Commonwealth Relations Office and of Her Majesty's Oversea Civil Service in the Territories concerned will pass to the Home Secretary, and my right honourable friend will be concerned for the interests of those affected.

In relation to the future transfers or promotions of individual officers, the responsibility will continue to rest with the Commonwealth Secretary and the Colonial Secretary, as the case may be.

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

My Lords, we are not going to debate this matter now, but, in view of what the noble and learned Viscount and the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, have just said, I should like to make it clear that our misgivings about this statement are not based primarily on the administration and practical convenience of this change in Ministerial responsibility. What we are concerned about is Central Africa, and we feel that this is going to administer a shock to the Africans in the two Protectorates, which have always regarded the Secretary of State for the Colonies as their champion. This is most unfortunate at a moment when we need the cooperation of the African Parties and the African population in these territories, both in the Federation and in the Protectorates.

The second point is this. We all admire Mr. Butler's ability, but, to put a Minister who has never had any personal experience or special knowledge of Central Africa in charge of Central African affairs at a moment when important and urgent decisions have to be taken about the future of the Federation, is obviously going to handicap him, as compared with Ministers who have already had much experience of Central African affairs.

4.10 p.m.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for what appeared, at any rate in the first sentence or two of his supplementary question, to be an endorsement of the practical reasons underlying this arrangement. I say that without agreeing with the latter part of what he said. I am sure that, when noble Lords opposite have studied the statement carefully, as I know they will, their misgivings will be allayed and they will be able to play the great part which I feel certain they can play—and which I know the noble Earl can play and has played—in allaying any misgivings, which are without foundation, among those with whom they may be in contact in the Continent of Africa. I know, of course, that in most parts of Africa the name "Colonial Office" is recognised as a symbol of protection, and I am happy to think it is so; and it is even so among people who are sometimes ready to attack colonialism.

I am happy to repeat the assurance contained in the original statement, that the special protection which Her Majesty's Government give to the people of the two Northern Territories is exercised by the Government as a whole, and will become the special responsibility of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, of whom courteous things have been spoken not only by the noble Earl but by the Leader of the Opposition. He will, of course, become their sheet anchor.

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House whether this means that Mr. Butler will now be relieved of his responsibilities in heading the Cabinet Committee on the Common Market. Secondly, may I ask what steps the Government are proposing to take in Central Africa, to persuade the people that this proposed new arrangement is merely a matter of administrative convenience?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, as regards the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question, I am not sure that it is the custom to describe the Chairmanship of Cabinet Committees in public. I think I am limited in some way by convention in that respect. But I can say that the Home Secretary will certainly carry on his special responsibilities for the oversight of the Common Market negotiations. As regards the latter point, of course every step will be taken to show that what I have said is correct. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Perth has only this afternoon been describing to me steps which have been taken in the way of explaining to African leaders exactly what is involved. If I may, I should like to reiterate what I said in answer to the noble Earl opposite: that not only members of the Government but members of all political Parties can assist in this matter.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, regarding the last point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, I should have thought it would have been helpful if the House could have been given more detail as to what the noble Viscount means by "practical difficulties". We have not yet heard of a single practical difficulty. What are the practical difficulties?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, I think that the noble Viscount should do me the courtesy of following my suggestion that he should read the statement—

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

I have read it right through.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

—and then, if he feels that there is anything else which needs to be put to me, he can do that and I will try to answer him. But I really feel that he is not doing justice to the original statement by suggesting that it is inadequate in this respect.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, I read it very carefully before the noble and learned Viscount actually read it out, so I am not speaking without my brief an this matter, which is his statement. There are no real, practical difficulties illustrated in that statement.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, if I may repeat the famous words of Mr. Justice Swift, "Read it again".

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

Then I must conclude that the real difficulty is the disagreement between the Ministries, which have not been mastered by the Prime Minister.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, I can assure the noble Viscount that in that respect, at least, he is wholly mistaken. It is a question of fact, and I can assure him on the fact.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, may I ask whether this now means that we have swapped the noble Earl, Lord Perth, for the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, and that Lord Bathurst will answer questions on this subject?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

No, my Lords, it does not mean that.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

Then who will now instruct the Minister for the Colonies in this House?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Perth, will still deal with Colonial Office matters, and the spokesman for the new department will in due course be allocated by the Leader of the House, as it is his duty to do.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

You had better get a new set of lessons in noughts and crosses, and see which is going to work out.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

I must say, my Lords, that the noble Viscount is not being his usual courteous self in that last observation.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

Do not be so touchy.