HL Deb 08 March 1962 vol 237 cc1198-201

3.21 p.m.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are now in a position to make a statement about the relaxation of the statutory requirements governing the records required to be kept by the drivers of commercial vehicles under Section 186 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, which was discussed during the debates in this House on the Road Traffic Bill.]

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM)

My Lords, my right honourable friend proposes to seek power, through the Road Traffic Bill, to make regulations under the Road Traffic Act, 1960, to exempt from the obligation to keep records, under Section 186 of that Act, drivers of all "C" licensed vehicles not over 16 cwt. in unladen weight and operating within a five-mile radius of base. These regulations will apply for an experimental period of two years, after which the arrangement will be reviewed in the light of experience.

My right honourable friend has given the fullest consideration to the arguments advanced by my noble friend Lord Derwent during our debates on the Road Traffic Bill that a special and limited form of record should be introduced in specified cases in place of the present comprehensive record. He has also consulted the industry and trade union interests. He felt that the use of two forms of record would be confusing and would make enforcement more difficult. He decided, however, that there was a prima facie case for complete exemption from record keeping on the very limited scale have described, and that it would be right to try out such an exemption experimentally. My right honourable friend proposes therefore to put forward a Government Amendment when the Road Traffic Bill is considered in Committee in another place.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there will be considerable disappointment that the radius of operation and the size of vehicles are both so restricted? But may I, at the same time, thank my noble friend and my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport for the fact that they have at any rate made a start in bringing some common sense into these regulations.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, the answer to the first part of my noble friend's supplementary is, Yes; I was not surprised to learn that from him. But it is very nice to have his few kind words, even with reservations.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this: as the Minister has said that consultations were taking place with numerous people, including the trade unions, have the trade unions approved this new radius of five miles?

LORD CHESHAM

I understand that the position was that the trade union interests consulted did not like it.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

My Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord—because we all admire the thoroughness with which he usually answers Questions—I wish he had explained what this meant. I had something to do with the original Road Traffic Act of 1930, but I cannot recall what Section 186 of the Act of 1960 is about. Is it about keeping records of journeys, with a view to checking up on whether drivers are being rushed too much or over-working? If it is, we ought to know. I think it is a very serious matter if relaxation is taking place on these matters, because this is a way of checking that drivers are not working too long a stretch, with the possibility of danger to the public and to themselves.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I am perfectly aware of these matters but, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord and what he has asked, I do not think it is for me to enlarge on the whole of the background of a Question which is put to the Government by any Member of your Lordships' House. Surely I should have been talking here for perhaps about an hour if I were to do that. I can only answer the Question as it is put. The noble Lord will perhaps remember that there was considerable discussion of this particular matter at various stages of the passing of the Road Traffic Bill through this House. I do not think it would really be for the convenience of the House if Ministers explained the whole background to every Question put to them.

THE EARL OF SWINTON

My Lords, is it not a fact that, if an Amendment is proposed and carried in another place, we shall have the advantage of hearing or reading what is said there, and that the Amendment will then have to come to us (for the Bill originated in this House), and we shall have an opportunity of discussing all the points raised to-day? Is that not the regular and proper procedure?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, if this Amendment is accepted in another place (that is, of course, exactly what will happen.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, that does not mean that noble Lords on this side cannot get up, after the Minister has given his first Answer to the questioner and said that the trade unions were consulted, to ask whether they agreed. And for us it is particularly interesting to hear that they have not agreed, and all our fears in the matter remain.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, the noble Viscount who leads the Opposition is perfectly right and proper, in my opinion, in his views and in what he has just said. I should like to make it quite clear that I took no kind of exception to anything he said or to any question he asked. I merely thought it wrong that one should have to give the whole of the biographical note, of the background of the Question; which is what the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, asked. He will see, when he comes to read his Hansard to-morrow that that is just what he did ask for.

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords the noble Lord will appreciate that the present records provide for an immediate showing of over-all working hours, permitted the maximum of nine hours' driving out of the toal of eleven. Will these proposed records still give the inspector the opportunity of ascertaining the commencing hour of duty in relation to the time at which the vehicle is stopped?

LORD CHESHAM

No, my Lords, Since the proposal is that certain drivers of certain vehicles in certain circumstances—all of which, as I think the noble Lord will agree, is very limited—will be exempted from record-keeping, there will be no record to show anything.

LORD LINDGREN

All these vehicles normally turn out to be those of the baker and the milkman. Will the noble Lord say whether or not these workers in the industry, and the public, are going to be protected, from the point of view of public safety, against excessive hours?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, we think and completely agree with the noble Lord that the protection these measures were designed to give is invaluable in other circumstances for drivers of heavier and longer route vehicles; they are certainly of the greatest value there. But under this proposal the interests of the drivers and the public are not being jeopardised.