HL Deb 31 July 1962 vol 243 cc131-4

3.38 p.m.

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has just made in the other place a statement in reply to a Question on the Leonardo da Vinci Cartoon which I think it would be for the convenience of the House if I repeated here. The statement is as follows:

"I asked the President of the Royal Academy to delay selling the Leonardo Cartoon in order to allow time for a public appeal. This was undertaken in a public-spirited and energetic way by the National Art Collections Fund, and I should like to express our gratitude to Lord Crawford and Balcarres and his colleagues for what they have done. As a result of the appeal, and of the contributions made by the National Art Collections Fund, Lord Crawford and Balcarres informs me that they can make available £450,000 towards the £800,000 which the Royal Academy are asking for the Cartoon.

"The Government have been greatly impressed by the very large number of individual citizens who have contributed their own money towards keeping this great work of art in this country. I am, therefore, informing Lord Crawford and Balcarres that, subject to the approval of Parliament, the balance of £350,000 will be found from public funds."

That is the statement.

LORD SILKIN

My Lords, we are very grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for making that statement, and I am sure the whole House will welcome the fact that the Government are sufficiently interested in works of art to make this handsome contribution. I hope that that fact will have some effect in making the work of art known to the general public, because until the appeal was started very few people in this country or even outside had ever heard of it; but to-day it has, of course, become famous. I am sure we should like to express our thanks to all those who have made contributions to the Fund and so enabled us to save this work of art.

I am rather amused that the noble and learned Viscount personally makes this statement after his speech of yesterday. He will remember telling the House of the enormous numbers of claims that are being made upon the Government by all sorts of people in all sorts of directions. I am not sure whether he mentioned this particular one, but perhaps he knew this was coming to-day. At any rate, he mentioned a number of similar applications made to the Government which, by implication, I thought he was saying should be resisted. However, I am very glad that he is treating this as an exception, and the whole nation will be grateful that we have been able to save this work of art, with the help of Her Majesty's Government.

LORD REA

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin. Everybody will be extremely pleased that the Government have taken an interest in this matter. All of us are interested in art, some of us very deeply and sincerely, not only from personal reasons but from reasons of responsibility, and we are indeed grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Crawford and Balcarres, and his colleagues for what they have done, and to the generous members of the public. Nevertheless, I am a little uneasy about the way this matter is being settled. By instituting this Art Collections Fund the Government were virtually instituting a referendum for the public, and the public refused to endorse that. They are now proposing to pay out taxpayers' money to make up the difference. One is pleased that this cartoon is to be retained in this country, but I am not quite happy about the method employed.

Baroness HORSBRUGH

My Lords, does not the noble and learned Viscount think it has been made clear that the public were in favour of retaining this cartoon if they were willing to subscribe this large sum of money? And does it not appear that this is in full agreement with what has been said on other occasions, that this Government are willing to help those who help themselves?

LORD MOYNE

My Lords, while welcoming our noble and learned Leader's statement that this grant may be forthcoming, but especially that it is to be subject to the approval of Parliament, since this is a question on Which differing views are sincerely and strongly held, may I ask my noble and learned friend how soon discussion of such approval will be possible and whether the Royal Academy have agreed to wait the necessary length of time?

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Viscount, in view of the fact that the taxpayer, through the Government, are making this contribution, whether the Government will ensure that this work of art is seen outside London?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, there are quite a number of questions there. I would thank both the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and the noble Lord, Lord Rea, for their kindly thought about this matter and their generous remarks. Of course, all I said yesterday was that the public must realise that in contributions by the Government, great or small, handsome or niggardly, they are not the Government's pockets primarily which are being emptied, and if the public want it that way—and I think we have interpreted public opinion correctly in this matter—that is the way they can have it.

It is idle for them to complain at whatever price it is they have to pay, I would agree with my noble friend Baroness Horsbrugh: I know that what impressed some of my right honourable Mends and noble friends was the fact that great numbers of people had subscribed sums, which some of them may have been ill able to afford, to preserve this work of art. That influenced the Government in making what is not only a handsome but an unprecedented contribution to a matter of this kind, and I think it should have influenced the Government.

At all events, I suppose, as my noble friend Lord Moyne says, people will continue to hold slightly differing views about this particular matter. I do not think this can be discussed before the Recess; I suppose it will be discussed in the Commons in the ordinary way. I do not know of any specific arrangements that are being made with the Royal Academy, but when a statement of this kind is made it is assumed that Parliament will endorse what the Government have done, and I believe myself the Royal Academy would act in this belief. As regards exhibiting the cartoon elsewhere, the substance of which it is made of is of a highly brittle and fragile nature and I think where and how we exhibit it will have to be determined primarily now by our duty, not only to the country but to civilised mankind, to keep it in a reasonable condition. I know there are many people who would like to see it outside London if that can be arranged technically.

LORD SILKIN

My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Viscount whether this gift is unconditional or whether the Government feel they are in a position to impose conditions such as my noble friend has suggested?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, I do not think the Government can impose conditions. I had the impression—again I am speaking perhaps rather inadvisedly—that once the cartoon had been bought it would in effect belong to the nation, through whatever public organ it would be who would technically hold the legal property. I do not think it would be for the Government to impose conditions. It is a matter for discussion between public bodies who in one way or another represent the nation.