HL Deb 12 July 1962 vol 242 cc389-93

4.13 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Goschen.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]

Clause 1 [Interpretation of references to private gain]:

VISCOUNT GOSCHEN moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "charge for" and insert "maintenance or other charge in respect of". The noble Lord said: With the permission of the Committee, I will speak on the first four of my Amendments to Clause 11 (3), as they all deal with the same subject; that is to say, the hiring agreements on gaming machines. Your Lordships may remember that on Second Reading I explained that the purpose of the clause was to prevent the lessor of a gaming machine from getting a "cut" or percentage of the takings of any such machine, but to allow a fixed rental to be paid to him. On further consideration of this clause, it was thought that there still might be a loophole, in the way of a maintenance charge which might be fixed, dependent upon the takings of the machine.

This first Amendment, therefore, extends the prohibition to a "hiring maintenance or other charge". The second Amendment is consequential upon the first. Again, it may be considered that, as it stands, this subsection might still permit a charge, in that it depended in some way on the amount of use to which a gaming machine was put. For example, it might be fixed upon the number of times the arm of a "one-armed bandit" was pulled down. That is one of the ways in which the lessor might obtain private gain. The third Amendment remedies that possibility. The fourth Amendment is consequential upon the first. I trust that I have made it plain that the purpose of these four Amendments is to put it beyond doubt that no charge may be made for a gaming machine or other equipment which depends in any way whatsoever upon how frequently the machine or equipment is used. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 3, leave out ("charge for") and insert the said new words.—(Viscount Goschen.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT GOSCHEN

I beg to move the second Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 5, leave out first ("for") and insert ("in respect of")—(Viscount Goschen.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT GOSCHEN

I beg to move the third Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 8, leave out from first ("to") to ("that") in line 10 and insert ("the extent to which that or some other such machine or equipment is used for the purposes of lotteries or gaming").—(Viscount Goschen.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT GOSCHEN

I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 14, leave out ("hiring").—(Viscount Goschen.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

VISCOUNT GOSCHEN moved, after Clause 1, to insert the following new clause:

Payments at entertainments not held for private gain

. In sub-paragraph (ii) of paragraph (b) of section twenty of the Betting and Gaming Act, 1960 (which provides that, in relation to gaming to which that section applies, section sixteen of that Act shall have effect as if for the condition set out in paragraph (c) of subsection (1) thereof there were substituted the conditions set out in subsection (1) of section four of the Small Lotteries and Gaming Act, 1956) for the words "the condition set out in paragraph (c)" there shall be substituted the words "the conditions set out in paragraphs (6) and (c)".

The noble Lord said: Section 20 of the Betting and Gaming Act, 1960, is a technical provision intended to ensure that entertainment conducted in accordance with the conditions laid down in Section 4 of the Small Lotteries and Gaming Act, 1956 (this is what is often called "a small gaming party"), should be excepted from those provisions of the 1960 Act which would otherwise render it unlawful. Briefly, the conditions with which the small gaming party must comply are as follows. One, not more than one payment—and that not exceeding 5s.—may be made in respect of all games played. Two, there must not be more than one distribution of prizes in respect of all games played, and the total value must not exceed £20. Three, the amount appropriated for expenses must not exceed the reasonable cost of the facilities provided. Four, the proceeds, after deduction for sums of expenses and provision of prizes, must be applied for purposes other than private gain.

Section 16 of the Betting and Gaming Act, 1960, contains some general rules which are applicable to all gaming, and the intention of Section 20 was to exempt the small gaming party from any of those rules which is inconsistent with the conditions which have already been laid down in the 1956 Act. I received a letter which pointed out to me that there was a mistake in Section 20 of the 1960 Act and, following consultations with my noble friend Lord Bathurst, it was thought that this was in fact the case. I will be as brief as I can. There are three general rules for gaming set out in Section 16 (1) of the 1960 Act, and, in simplified form, they are these. First, the game must be fair; secondly, all stake money must be paid to the winners and none must be kept by the organiser; and, thirdly, there must be no other charge—for instance, a charge to enter. In a small gaming party a single charge, not exceeding five shillings, is allowed, not all of which is returned to the winners.

The whole point of a small gaming party is to raise money for some purpose other than private gain. For example, your Lordships will remember that on Second Reading I referred to the funds of a club. So a small gaming party does infringe the second and third rules which are set down in Section 16 (1) of the 1960 Act, and Section 20 of that Act ought to except it from both these rules. In fact, it was found that it excepts it from only the third. The purpose of this new clause is to put this matter right. This new clause is to correct an error. Again, it does not open up any new methods of gaming. It is consistent with the whole purpose of the Bill, which is to make it possible for a club to organise small gaming parties, among other things, for the benefit of the club. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— After Clause 1, insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Goschen.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2 agreed to.

VISCOUNT GOSCHEN

The Amendment to the Long Title to, the Bill is consequential upon the new clause which your Lordships have just passed. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— At end add ("and to exclude the operation of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section sixteen of the Betting and Gaming Act, 1960, in relation to gaming to which section twenty of that Act applies.").—(Viscount Goschen.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to. Title, as amended, agreed to.

House resumed.