SAFETY STANDARDS OF FOREIGN AIRLINES (Hansard, 28 February 1962)

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ LORD DENHAM
My Lords, foreign airlines require the permission of my right honourable friend the Minister of Aviation to operate to this country, and it is true that they will be carrying more of this traffic than hitherto. The great bulk of it will, however, continue to be carried by British airlines. Their services, in turn, are subject to the approval of the country of destination, and it is not in this country's interest to promote international policies discriminating against foreign airlines. Nevertheless, it is not my right honourable friend's policy to grant applications by foreign airlines in circumstances where the Air Transport Licensing Board would refuse an application by a British airline. By international agreement it is for each Government to maintain safety standards for its own airlines. But my right honourable, friend would not grant a permit to a foreign operator about 956 whose safety standards he entertained doubts, without consulting the national aviation authority responsible.

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that it is not a question of discrimination against foreign airlines, but of ensuring the safety and well-being of British passengers? That is the important point. Is it not the case that 235 applications from British firms have been refused by the Air Transport Licensing Board, as compared with 228 which were accepted, and that the foreign airlines do not have to satisfy the same stringent conditions which rightly have to be observed by British airlines? Does the noble Lord not agree that this is, in fact, discrimination against British airlines, which is resulting in the trebling of charter traffic of the foreign airlines?

§ LORD DENHAM
My Lords, by international agreement it is the responsibility of the Government of registry to enforce safety standards, and the Ministry would consult the aviation authority concerned about any foreign applicant whose safety standards were in doubt. The question of safety is a matter of international agreement, my Lords, and it is a question of relying on the safety standards of the country concerned. I am afraid that, without notice, I do not have in front of me the figures of applications of British operators, who have been refused. The noble Lord fired rather a lot of questions at me. What was his final question?

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, I asked whether it was not right that foreign airlines should in fact be subjected to the same standards of safety as those to which our British airlines are rightly subjected; and the noble Lord's answer has not given that assurance. If he has not the figures of British firms, which I have given him, can he say how many foreign airlines have been refused permission to run a service for which they have applied?

§ LORD DENHAM
My Lords, it is in order to ensure the safety standards of foreign airlines that my right honourable friend makes these inquiries. With regard to applications from foreign operators, applications are still coming in to operate services in the summer of 1962, and it is difficult to measure the increase in foreign participation in this business. Up 957 to February 23 the Minister of Aviation had received 65 applications for permission, compared with a total of 102 for 1961. I cannot yet give the figures of how many of these applications were successful.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that when these agents are taking bookings for holidays they should in every case disclose the airline and the type of aircraft on which the booking has been made? And would the noble Lord not also agree that, while we are concerned with the safety of passengers and require a high level of safety for the aircraft, we must never forget the safety of those persons who are living adjacent to the airfields; and therefore we should expect overseas airlines to maintain the same safety level as we require of our own airlines?

§ LORD DENHAM
My Lords, I quite agree with the second half of the noble Lord's supplementary question. With regard to the first half of his question, my right honourable friend is ensuring that, in future—and this, for reasons of administration, will start only in the winter of this year—licences will be issued subject to the following condition: that any advertisement relating wholly or in part to an air transport service to be provided under the licence that is issued, whether or not it is an advertisement published by or on behalf of the holder, should include the name of the holder of the licence and should indicate (a) that it is intended that he is to be the operator of the aircraft providing the service; and (b) the type of aircraft he intends to operate for the purpose of providing the service. It is proposed to make permits issued to foreign operators subject to the same condition.

§ LORD SILKIN
My Lords, the noble Lord has given us a great deal of information, for some of which we have not asked, but could he give us a simple answer to the question which is implied in what we want to know—namely, are the safety requirements of these foreign airlines less stringent than our own?

§ LORD DENHAM
My Lords, safety standards are a matter for international agreement.

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the last piece of information which he read out about the advertisements contained not one provision about safety standards? Is he further aware that the circular which has been sent by the Ministry to the British Travel Association deals only with traffic justification and again does not deal with safety? What we are concerned about is to ensure, in so far as it is possible, that there is no repetition of the kind of accidents we had last year, and that people should be flying in British 'planes knowing that they are safe.

§ LORD DENHAM
My Lords, if the noble Lord will read my original Answer, I think he will find that my right honourable friend is just as concerned with safety as he is.

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, even within the very stringent regulations (and they are perfectly properly stringent regulations) of the Ministry of Aviation in this country, there is a considerable variation in the standards of maintenance as between operators; and that inspection abroad does not arise as it does in this country with the Ministry of Aviation? How do the Government propose to check that?

§ LORD DENHAM
My Lords, that is another question. If the noble Lord will bring to my notice instances where he thinks that the safety standards of foreign airlines are not what they should be, I shall be only too glad to look into them and to draw them to the attention of my right honourable friend.

§ LORD TAYLOR
My Lords, arising out of the noble Lord's fifth supplementary answer, are we to understand that, in future, advertisements for trips abroad by travel agencies will include the name of the airline on which the travellers are going to travel? If so, that will be a very useful piece of information, I think, and a good help to the public in choosing a safe 'plane.

§ LORD DENHAM
My Lords, I think the technical term is "the name of the operator"; but that is so.

§ LORD STONHAM
But that will not happen until after next summer.

THE EARL OF GOSFORD
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend (he may not be able to give me the answer now, but I should be grateful if he would perhaps write to me about it) whether these airlines, the subject of the Question to-day, are subject to international agreement on air fares, or whether they can charge any fares they like?

§ LORD DENHAM
I think I should like notice of that question.

THE EARL OF GOSFORD
Would the noble Lord let me have that information?

§ LORD DENHAM
Certainly.

§ LORD FORBES
My Lords, when grant-aided passages are given to passengers, will Her Majesty's Government ensure that the passengers go by British aircraft?

§ LORD DENHAM
My Lords, I am afraid that that, too, is a different question.