§ 2.13 p.m.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government—
- (a) How many buildings have been scheduled as being of historic or architectural importance;
- (b) Of the above how many have been destroyed, allowed to fall into a state of disrepair, or moved to a new site;
- (c) Of those destroyed, in how many cases was this vandalism at the instigation of a Government Department or a local authority, and in how many cases was private enterprise responsible.]
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONMy Lords, before the Question is answered may I raise a point of Order, if there is such a thing? Is it in order in writing in a Question to charge the Government or local authorities with vandalism?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, my noble friend Lord Jellicoe has asked me to answer this Question by the noble 711 Duke, in view of the fact that he is at the moment in my neighbourhood in Yorkshire looking at the recent damage in and near Sheffield. In England and Wales 81,000 buildings have been included in stautory lists of buildings of special architectural or historic interest. In Scotland only limited progress has been possible with statutory lists because of the very considerable search work in connection with titles for purposes of the necessary recording in the Register of Sasines. Over 16,000 buildings have, however, been included in provisional lists which give provisional guidance to local planning authorities.
Although my right honourable friends the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Secretary of State receive copies of notices of intention to demolish buildings included in statutory lists, and are often consulted about proposals affecting buildings in provisional lists, the fate of the buildings is a matter for the local planning authority unless the Minister concerned intervenes.
There are no records to show how many listed buildings have been destroyed, and for this reason it is impossible to try to apportion responsibility for their demolition as between public and private bodies. The maintenance of listed buildings is the responsibility of the owners and the Government have no means of knowing how many are in disrepair. Very few have been moved to new sites.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLLMy Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend for that information, so far as it goes. I should, however, like to ask him whether I am right in thinking that, in addition to Scotland, in England and Wales also there are many areas where the scheduling has not been completed; and, also, what practical effect this scheduling has on preventing the demolition of these buildings. In reply to my noble friend Lord Swinton, I should like to say that I tried to word this Question differently, but without using the word "destruction", which I felt was rather like "destroyed", it was difficult to make my meaning clear.
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, in reply to my noble friend's two supple- 712 mentaries, in England and Wales the position at December 31, 1961, was that out of 1,474 local authority areas 1,313 had been surveyed; 1,216 had provisional lists and 1,003 had full statutory lists. There were also 249 further areas with incomplete statutory lists, known as interim lists, which were compiled from works of reference. The total number of buildings covered by statutory lists, full and interim, was 81,028. In Scotland only limited progress has been possible with statutory listing because of the very considerable search work in connection with titles for purposes of the necessary recording in the Register of Sasines, but most of the country has been covered by provisional lists, including all 26 large burghs whose councils are planning authorities. If my noble friend wants more detailed figures I can tell him that 154 out of 172 small burghs and 512 out of 864 landward parishes are also included. These provisional lists cover over 16,000 buildings.
In answer to my noble friend's second supplementary, he used the word "scheduling" and I could not tell from that whether he meant places with provisional lists or places with statutory lists and the answer is different according to which he means.
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, if buildings are placed on the statutory list my understanding is (the noble Duke will appreciate that it is not my Department) that any proposal to demolish such a building must be communicated to the Minister, who may then intervene, and he may intervene in the two months following the communication made to him.
§ LORD AIREDALEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that an authority on these matters, in an article in The Times recently, levelled this criticism at the Buildings Preservation Order:
It tolerates nothing being done to a building subject to an Order before it becomes a dangerous structure and is demolished"?He goes on to suggest that in the case of one of these buildings being empty and likely to remain so, the appropriate 713 Minister should be empowered to acquire it by compulsory purchase. Will the noble Lord bear in mind this criticism and this constructive suggestion?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I hope I can set the noble Lord's mind at rest by telling him that local authorities and the Minister of Works have power under Section 41 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, to purchase a building compulsorily if there is a Building Preservation Order in force and if reasonable steps are not being taken for properly preserving that building.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLLMy Lords, I should be grateful if my noble friend would reply to this question if he knows the answer. In how many cases when his right honourable friend has been approached about a building on the statutory list has he in fact succeeded in stopping it from being demolished?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I am afraid I cannot give the noble Duke an answer to that question in reference either to Scotland or to England and Wales. But, according to my understanding of the state of affairs, my right honourable friend has power to prevent it if he considers that it should be prevented. There is no question of his having to enter into negotiations about it. As to the number of times that this power has been used, if the noble Duke will allow me I will find out the answer and write to him.