§ 3.25 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I gather that it would be convenient if I dealt first with what I understand is an Answer to a Written Question in the House of Commons about sport. I myself will make virtually the same Answer orally to this House.
This important subject has, as the House knows, been considered by a Committee set up by the Central Council of Physical Recreation under the chairmanship of Sir John Wolfenden. My Lords, when on May 8 my right honourable and learned friend the former Chancellor of the Exchequer announced in another place the willingness of the Government to approve substantial increases in local authority and educational capital expenditure on recreational projects, he added that the Governmnt were studying this Report and that its suggestions on organisation required further thought.
In the meantime considerable progress has been made with the provision of sporting and recreational facilities. On capital account—and this is the most important aspect, from the financial point of view—publicly financed work on facilities provided exclusively for sport has risen from £3.6 million in 1960–61 to £9 million in the year 1962–63. In addition, capital expenditure on sporting facilities in connection with education will amount to about £18 million in the current year, and growing provision is made by industry and commerce for their employees. On the recurrent side, the annual grants to voluntary bodies, such as the Central Council for Physical Recreation, the National Playing Fields Association and the Scottish Council of Physical Recreation, have more than doubled since 1959 and now total £366,000.
1252 These large and mounting expenditures are, however, contained in many different programmes for which responsibility is distributed between my right honourable friends the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Minister of Education and the Minister of Housing and Local Government. The Wolfenden Committee were, in the Government's view, right in drawing attention to the fact that this is a subject which cuts across the normal division of ministerial responsibility.
This is not a matter than can be solved, in the Government's view, by creating another agency that would be interposed between the responsible Ministers and local authorities. Schools and their playing fields must be planned together; local authorities must be in a position to plan their priorities. The Government, therefore, while agreeing with the diagnosis of the Wolfenden Report, do not agree with the remedy it proposes of establishing a Sports Development Council. Co-ordination is, of course, required in the development of sporting and recreational facilities in the various programmes so that we can get the best value out of them. My Lords, in my capacity as Lord President of the Council, I have now been given special responsibility for ensuring this. I shall have access to expert advice from both outside and inside the Government service, including, of course, the voluntary organisations concerned with various games and sports. That is the Answer.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, might I surprise the Lord President of the Council first of all by paying him two compliments? Is he aware that the sports organisations and certainly I myself imagine that he will be as disappointed with this statement as we are? And, secondly, may I ask him whether he is aware that we are delighted that he has been entrusted with this task, because those of us who came into contact with him in his all too short period as Minister of Education were only sorry when he left that Department? We know how interested he is in these matters.
Having said those nice things may I just come on to something else? May I ask your Lordships, and the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, to realise that the governing bodies of sport 1253 do not look upon setting up a Sports Development Council as
creating another agency that would be interposed between the responsible Ministers and local authorities"?Is the Lord President of the Council aware that we really look upon a Sports Development Council as something which would be able, without in any way impinging on the autonomy of governing bodies of sport or on the work of voluntary bodies assisting sport, to coordinate the efforts for sport in the community on such matters as facilities, general inquiries and medical and scientific problems related to sport? Knowing the Lord President as we do, may we assume that he Chas not got a closed mind on these matters and that we may wait on him in the hope of talking to him about them in due course?
LORD REAMy Lords, I very much agree with much of What the noble Baroness has said, but it seems that this is a most complicated subject that needs a lot of co-ordination all round. I think, on the whole, that it is better there should not be another body coordinating so long as we have such a responsible and sympathetic Minister as the present Lord President—and I hope his successors will be the same—in this field.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I would thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Rea, for the very kind things they have said about me personally, which I hope I shall deserve. Of course this question of organisation is one which is open to a good deal of argument on both sides. What is more important than the question of organisation are the questions of policy posed by the Wolfenden Report. It is precisely those issues of policy that I shall try to evaluate and, if need be, get through in one way or the other when I take up my duties, which I am now presumably free to do. My mind is more likely to be empty than closed on this vast field, and I certainly should not like to prevent the noble Baroness from coming to see me at any time.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, while welcoming the fact that the noble Viscount will pay special attention to this important aspect of our life, may I ask him whether he will also pay attention to the difficulties of sport in the 1254 rural areas—not so much sport as games, which I presume is largely what is meant by sport in this context—particularly in mid-Wales and, I presume, some parts of Scotland and some parts of England? Is it not a fact that there are considerably more difficulties in organising sport in such areas than in the densely populated urban areas; and in view of the fact that Dr. Beeching is now going to remove most of our railways, may I ask whether this is not also an impediment to the organisation of sporting fixtures?
§ VISCOUNT BRIDGEMANMy Lords, could I add to what the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, said, that it would be a great help to the matters he has just raised if the report of the Jack Committee were implemented.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, dealing with the point of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, I am not sure that I really welcome an argument about the effect of railway closures upon sport at this stage of my duties. As regards the difficulties of rural and urban areas, I should have thought they were different rather than greater one than the other, and obviously that is just the sort of thing which has to be discussed and co-ordinated in the light of our conclusions on the Wolfenden Report. But I certainly will not omit consideration of Wales or Scotland, although the Wolfenden Report, so far as I remember, said that in some respects Scotland was rather in advance of English thought in this matter and therefore may be able to teach us something.
§ LORD WISEMy Lords, before the Lord President closes this matter, may I make a plea on behalf of the schools in their sporting organisations? I understood a few days ago, when I was attending a meeting of the County Schools Athletic Association, that there was a possibility that the education authorities would cut down the annual grants—I am not referring to capital expenditure but to annual grants for the carrying out of schools sports and athletic meetings. Can the Lord President, in dealing with this particular point, bear in mind that we rely upon schools athletics for turning out national athletes of a high standard. It is important, I think, that all schools organisations at county level or All-England level, whether they are for athletics or 1255 Rugby or cricket or anything else, should receive the greatest possible support by the Government.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, may I apologise to my noble friend Lord Bridgeman for not having answered his question? I am afraid that if somebody gets up behind me, he is rather apt to be out of sight but not out of mind. I will certainly bear in mind what he says, but I should not like to say anything more about that now.
In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Wise, I appreciate what he says about the importance of sport and games in schools in relation to the whole problem, but I think I should say that the functions I outlined in my statement were not designed to supersede those of the Minister of Education, who is directly responsible for this, but to accept the point made by the Wolfenden Committee: that the subject is a good deal wider than education and that a good many other departments and considerations have to be brought to bear. But I fully accept the point he has made.