HL Deb 18 December 1962 vol 245 cc1014-7

2.37 p.m.

LORD BOOTHBY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the prevailing traffic congestion, they will consider the possibility of imposing further limits upon the size, weight and length of commercial vehicles which are permitted to make use of the roads of this country.]

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, traffic congestion is one of a number of factors which has been taken into account in deciding what limits to impose upon the length, width and weight of commercial vehicles. Any reduction in permitted size or weight would mean that more vehicles would need to be used to carry the same quantities of goods and the result would be worse traffic congestion than exists now. On the Continent larger vehicles are allowed than here, and we are now considering proposals to increase our maxima with a view to facilitating international traffic without adding to the present difficulties of road traffic.

Congestion is sometimes caused by certain very large vehicles which are especially designed to carry abnormal indivisible loads in excess of dimensions permitted under the normal regulations. These are governed by the Motor Vehicles (Authorisation of Special Types) General Order. A new Order has recently been made, the effect of which is to require any person proposing to move a load exceeding 14 feet wide or 90 feet long to obtain the prior approval of the Ministry. It is too soon yet to say what effect the new requirements are having, as the last of them came into force only three days ago. But it seems already apparent that a substantial number of these exceptional loads which would otherwise have been permitted freely on the roads are having to be transported in some other manner.

LORD BOOTHBY

My Lords, does my noble friend realise that these great trains that one meets by day and night on the main roads of this country are driving many timid motorists, including myself, either straight into the ditches or off the roads altogether? Does he not think that there is a good deal to be said, in view of the prevailing financial condition of the railways of this country, for getting these uncontrolled trains on the roads back on to the rails, which the Government could quite easily do?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, there are, of course, as the noble Lord well knows, a number of loads of the sort that he describes which will not fit on to the railways either. As for returning traffic to them, I am glad to hear that they are evidently enjoying the noble Lord's patronage.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I am appalled to hear the noble Lord say that he is proposing to increase the maxima. If we are proposing to increase the maxima, will he give us an assurance that the very large vehicles will at least be confined to roads which are of a reasonable dimension? Is the noble Lord aware that in quite narrow streets in country towns enormous vehicles are now passing, to the great danger of not only the timid motorist, but the timid pedestrian and the timid everybody else?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I am aware that there is a good deal of force in what the noble Lady says. I am not in a position today to give an assurance of that kind, nor do I want to go too far in generally debating the matter today. However, I should like her to bear in mind that the words of my original Answer were, "are now considering proposals" to do this thing, and the operative words are really, "without adding to the present difficulties of road traffic".

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this is the first intimation that this country has had that the Ministry of Transport or the Government are considering enlarging the size of vehicles at present using these roads? Does he not consider that this will be an affront to the people of this country, who are already alarmed at the growing size of the goods-carrying vehicles which are at the present time becoming almost a menace to the road traffic conditions of this country?

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, would my noble friend say something with regard to vehicles other than commercial vehicles? In his reply he referred to commercial vehicles, and the Question refers to "the size, weight and length of commercial vehicles." Could my noble friend say something with regard to the limitation of length of vehicles for passengers, which are now getting longer and longer and, as the noble Lord has just said, make the use of the country roads much more difficult? I think the whole of my noble friend's Answer referred to the weight of commercial vehicles.

LORD CHESHAM

Yes, my Lords, we are indeed talking of commercial vehicles. I did not think that what I had said today was the first intimation that consideration would be given to lining up with what is the practice in other countries for other reasons. But I do not think I can add much to what I said in reply to the supplementary question of the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger: that an important part of it is to look at these proposals with a view to minimising any difficulties that they may have on the roads.

LORD BOOTHBY

My Lords, I do not want to press this matter, but I ask the noble Lord whether he will give the House an assurance that the Government will have a new look at the whole problem in the light of what has been said in this House today.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I have no hesitation in looking at it in that way. I have already said that a look is already being had at the whole matter.

LORD BOOTHBY

A very poor one.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, would the noble Lord give an assurance with regard to passenger vehicles? The question referred to further limits. We want restricted limits, not further limits. The size of vehicles for passengers should be reduced rather than extended.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, it is not very long since they were extended. As the arguments for extending them were accepted at the time, I do not think that it would be a good policy now to reduce them.

VISCOUNT BRENTFORD

My Lords, could I ask my noble friend whether, in the event of fresh regulations being introduced for this purpose, they will be regulations of a character which have to be laid before Parliament for approval?

LORD CHESHAM

I think I had better have notice of that to make sure.